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  • Why does the film that started the Disney Renaissance get lots of hate? I personally love this film. (Plus Ariel is my favorite princess ūü§ó)

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    • Seriously no replies??

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    • I don't hate this film, I like it aswell. I wasn't aware that it got lots of hate, and I can't understand why.

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    • The SJW puts Ariel to shame to marry Eric at the first time. But I think Ariel was right to quit his family to stop her father to love her like a replacement wife of her mother Athena.

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    • Hercules Fangirl wrote: Seriously no replies??

      Sorry, I just found out about this thread. Who knows for sure why some despise the film, but I am among those that don't, even if I don't watch the film, anymore. Ariel is among my favorite Disney princesses, including Snow White, Belle, Cinderella, Mulan, etc.

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    • The Little Mermaid was for the longest time a well regarded and beloved film during the 90s. ¬†In fact there was a time that Ariel was recognized as the first independent princess, and everyone simply enjoyed each of the proceeding princess after her. ¬†Sure there were friendlier debates on who they liked more and why, but it was purely for fun! ¬†Ariel and Belle were the top of the line in that fan love. ¬†

      Then in the late 2010s to now the mass media explosion of obnoxious movie lovers (cough movie critics on youtube cough cough) felt it was within their interest to over analyze the movies of the past and "educate the public".   The movies that fit well in what they percieved as "healthy movies" were praised exceptionally to the point they had no flaws at all, and the "unhealthy movies" were given the Roos Bolton treatment until all that could be understood about them was based purely on rumor.

      .......  And I appologise myself.  I treated movies the same way it is unfair to pin great characters against each other.  So busy defeading and loving one movie that I hated another movie purely because everyone was using Beauty and the Beast as a reason to hate The Little Mermaid. 

      Completly screwed up!  Became the very thing I thought I wasn't.....  This is weird because I am apologizing to a movie, but hey stranger things have happened!

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    • I still enjoy the franchise, even though I don't watch it.

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    • I didn't even know it was hated...personally I enjoy this film and the franchise as well so much. Yesterday I watched it with my sister and I fell in love with it so much. And for the third time, because once I was obsessed with the movie itself, another time with the animated series and now with the whole brand. I can understand why Ariel could get hate, but she's still a lovable character. So yeah, a masterpiece of the Disney Renaissance.

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    • What's the Roose Bolton treatment? I know who Roose Bolton is, I've seen all the episodes so far, but what does he have to do with it?

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    • What reinvigorated my interest in the Little Mermaid was some artwork found in the farthest corners of the darkest pits of the Internet.

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    • While I don't hate the film, I can see why people see it as problematic, and it is okay to enjoy something while acknowledging its flaws and critisize it.

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    • I guess some people wanted to be jerks and judgemental about everything that's good!

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    • I heard a rumor that Jeffrey Katzenberg was pushing for Ariel to get a lot of hate, largely because he didn't like that The Little Mermaid was a success without his involvement. I do know that whether Katzenberg, or as I call him, Katzen-jerk, was involved in the hatred being spread or not, however, the screenwriter he hired for the next DP film, Linda Woolverton, certainly didn't help in causing the hate to die, and if anything made the hate even WORSE by basically claiming that before her, all the DPs had were love and marriage as their goals in life and were insipid and helpless who merely waited for their prince to come (which is ignoring that, barring Aurora, all her predecessors had various plans that drove their actions, like how Ariel wanted to interact with humans, or how Snow White and Cinderella wanted to get away from their horrid stepfamilies, or how Cinderella and Ariel actually DID take measures to get what they want, even if they ultimately had some help, and the only ones who actually DID wait for their prince to come, Aurora and Snow White, actually had a pretty valid reason for doing so since they were in a coma and thus had no other choice but to do so).

      Not sure of anything definitive, though. Didn't really see how the complaints were even all that under close scrutiny, though, largely because Ariel never actually demonstrated selfish behavior at all in the movie. Not to mention, Ariel was quite badass, and already had plans to go to the surface even BEFORE meeting Eric (and for the record, a lot of the Disney Princesses already had desires beyond their prince anyways despite what Linda Woolverton stated

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote: I heard a rumor that Jeffrey Katzenberg was pushing for Ariel to get a lot of hate, largely because he didn't like that The Little Mermaid was a success without his involvement. I do know that whether Katzenberg, or as I call him, Katzen-jerk, was involved in the hatred being spread or not, however, the screenwriter he hired for the next DP film, Linda Woolverton, certainly didn't help in causing the hate to die, and if anything made the hate even WORSE by basically claiming that before her, all the DPs had were love and marriage as their goals in life and were insipid and helpless who merely waited for their prince to come (which is ignoring that, barring Aurora, all her predecessors had various plans that drove their actions, like how Ariel wanted to interact with humans, or how Snow White and Cinderella wanted to get away from their horrid stepfamilies, or how Cinderella and Ariel actually DID take measures to get what they want, even if they ultimately had some help, and the only ones who actually DID wait for their prince to come, Aurora and Snow White, actually had a pretty valid reason for doing so since they were in a coma and thus had no other choice but to do so).

      Not sure of anything definitive, though. Didn't really see how the complaints were even all that under close scrutiny, though, largely because Ariel never actually demonstrated selfish behavior at all in the movie. Not to mention, Ariel was quite badass, and already had plans to go to the surface even BEFORE meeting Eric (and for the record, a lot of the Disney Princesses already had desires beyond their prince anyways despite what Linda Woolverton stated

      It's basically because Ariel doesn't have a character's arc, she didn't grow, or mature or learn anything, she didn't evolve as a character. She wanted something, had some bad choices, didn't face consequences and then she got exactly what she wanted.

      Don't get me wrong, I like the Little Mermaid, but the film has major flaws, it's okay if people acknowledge them.

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    • Farerb wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote: I heard a rumor that Jeffrey Katzenberg was pushing for Ariel to get a lot of hate, largely because he didn't like that The Little Mermaid was a success without his involvement. I do know that whether Katzenberg, or as I call him, Katzen-jerk, was involved in the hatred being spread or not, however, the screenwriter he hired for the next DP film, Linda Woolverton, certainly didn't help in causing the hate to die, and if anything made the hate even WORSE by basically claiming that before her, all the DPs had were love and marriage as their goals in life and were insipid and helpless who merely waited for their prince to come (which is ignoring that, barring Aurora, all her predecessors had various plans that drove their actions, like how Ariel wanted to interact with humans, or how Snow White and Cinderella wanted to get away from their horrid stepfamilies, or how Cinderella and Ariel actually DID take measures to get what they want, even if they ultimately had some help, and the only ones who actually DID wait for their prince to come, Aurora and Snow White, actually had a pretty valid reason for doing so since they were in a coma and thus had no other choice but to do so).

      Not sure of anything definitive, though. Didn't really see how the complaints were even all that under close scrutiny, though, largely because Ariel never actually demonstrated selfish behavior at all in the movie. Not to mention, Ariel was quite badass, and already had plans to go to the surface even BEFORE meeting Eric (and for the record, a lot of the Disney Princesses already had desires beyond their prince anyways despite what Linda Woolverton stated

      It's basically because Ariel doesn't have a character's arc, she didn't grow, or mature or learn anything, she didn't evolve as a character. She wanted something, had some bad choices, didn't face consequences and then she got exactly what she wanted.

      Don't get me wrong, I like the Little Mermaid, but the film has major flaws, it's okay if people acknowledge them.

      Actually, I'd argue that Ariel DID evolve as a character and learn a few things, considering she attempted to avenge her dad and specifically tried to get Eric to leave her nearing the end of the film. She certainly had a character's arc. She wanted to become human, initially without Eric's involvement, then with Eric's involvement, eventually she got it. Sounds like a character arc to me. She certainly had far more of a character arc than the original at least (that one literally got everything she wanted after committing suicide, when if you ask me she should have gotten eternal damnation for everything she did).

      Besides, technically, MOST Disney Princesses past and present if we go by that logic lacked those.

      I do agree with you on one thing, though: The Little Mermaid story DOES have flaws in the movie, like the vanishing thimble-foot of Sebastian, for example (though to be fair, Disney really couldn't help with that due to not having a particularly big budget to work with. At least it had a valid excuse for those elements compared to, say, Beauty and the Beast which KEPT several flaws despite their clearly affording to fix those problems.).

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    • Elephant777 wrote: The Little Mermaid was for the longest time a well regarded and beloved film during the 90s. ¬†In fact there was a time that Ariel was recognized as the first independent princess, and everyone simply enjoyed each of the proceeding princess after her. ¬†Sure there were friendlier debates on who they liked more and why, but it was purely for fun! ¬†Ariel and Belle were the top of the line in that fan love. ¬†

      Then in the late 2010s to now the mass media explosion of obnoxious movie lovers (cough movie critics on youtube cough cough) felt it was within their interest to over analyze the movies of the past and "educate the public".   The movies that fit well in what they percieved as "healthy movies" were praised exceptionally to the point they had no flaws at all, and the "unhealthy movies" were given the Roos Bolton treatment until all that could be understood about them was based purely on rumor.

      .......  And I appologise myself.  I treated movies the same way it is unfair to pin great characters against each other.  So busy defeading and loving one movie that I hated another movie purely because everyone was using Beauty and the Beast as a reason to hate The Little Mermaid. 

      Completly screwed up!  Became the very thing I thought I wasn't.....  This is weird because I am apologizing to a movie, but hey stranger things have happened!

      Eh, apology accepted. And fully agree there. Though, I will mention this much: I may have my current... issues regarding Beauty and the Beast, but it being used to bash The Little Mermaid has little to do with my current negative views on the movie (though I'll admit it certainly didn't help), it more has to do with problems within the movie itself.

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    • Well there really are people who misunderstand loyalty enough to judge it as rudeness. That could have been part of why it's hated by some, plus how many people don't like to see mythical characters in stories of a princess. However I love the movie myself. It's not only I'm a fan of Ariel's, I'm also a fantasy lover, and there are time fantasy and myths are a bit related.

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    • I quite like The Little Mermaid, but my main problem with it is the two main characters.

      I though Ariel was dumb and quite selfish. I get that she wanted to explore the human world, and I have no problem with that, but the way she did it was just ridiculous. She made a deal with the most obviously evil person ever, in which she had 3 days to kiss a guy she'd barely met, all whilst being completely mute, and if she fails, her life is effectively over. Whilst doing all this, she puts herself, her friends, and her family in danger. I can see why people love her (she's free spirited, adventurous, follows her dreams etc.), but I just don't feel that way. 

      Eric was just bland. He was just some typical nice guy with very little humour or charisma. He was just the guy that Ariel falls in love with. I will give Eric some credit for killing the villain, which is something that few Disney heroes actually do.

      Also, Ariel and Eric clearly fell in love with each other because of their looks. Ariel fell in love with Eric before even meeting him, and Eric fell in love with Ariel without her ever talking to him. It just didn't feel real in my opinion.

      But hey, there are still plenty of positives too. Ursula is one of my favourite Disney villains, the soundtrack is great (although Kiss the Girl always gets stuck in my head), and I liked Sebastian and Flounder. Although it's not my favourite, I will always appreciate that it marked the start of the Disney Renaissance era.

      I've never understood people who spam their hatred of things like Disney films all over the internet. Most Disney films are seriously harmless and inoffensive, and they do so much more good than bad. Some films have actually managed to change people's lives for the better. Sure, they may sometimes not live up to the hype, but if they are making millions of people happy, then why do some people feel the need to bring them down?

      Anyway, that's my take on it. I hope that I haven't seemed too unfair. I've only seen the film once, so if I've got anything wrong, feel free to correct me. 

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    • DisneyCWS wrote: I quite like The Little Mermaid, but my main problem with it is the two main characters.

      I though Ariel was dumb and quite selfish. I get that she wanted to explore the human world, and I have no problem with that, but the way she did it was just ridiculous. She made a deal with the most obviously evil person ever, in which she had 3 days to kiss a guy she'd barely met, all whilst being completely mute, and if she fails, her life is effectively over. Whilst doing all this, she puts herself, her friends, and her family in danger. I can see why people love her (she's free spirited, adventurous, follows her dreams etc.), but I just don't feel that way. 

      Eric was just bland. He was just some typical nice guy with very little humour or charisma. He was just the guy that Ariel falls in love with. I will give Eric some credit for killing the villain, which is something that few Disney heroes actually do.

      Also, Ariel and Eric clearly fell in love with each other because of their looks. Ariel fell in love with Eric before even meeting him, and Eric fell in love with Ariel without her ever talking to him. It just didn't feel real in my opinion.

      But hey, there are still plenty of positives too. Ursula is one of my favourite Disney villains, the soundtrack is great (although Kiss the Girl always gets stuck in my head), and I liked Sebastian and Flounder. Although it's not my favourite, I will always appreciate that it marked the start of the Disney Renaissance era.

      I've never understood people who spam their hatred of things like Disney films all over the internet. Most Disney films are seriously harmless and inoffensive, and they do so much more good than bad. Some films have actually managed to change people's lives for the better. Sure, they may sometimes not live up to the hype, but if they are making millions of people happy, then why do some people feel the need to bring them down?

      Anyway, that's my take on it. I hope that I haven't seemed too unfair. I've only seen the film once, so if I've got anything wrong, feel free to correct me. 

      I typed a lot of stuff up responding point by point, but for some reason, it did not take, so maybe I'll keep it short and sweet:

      Ariel, if she truly were selfish, would have acted exactly like Emperor Kuzco in the beginning of The Emperor's New Groove (ie, an unpleasant jerk who not only literally didn't care about anyone who wasn't himself, but usually takes joy in suffering so long as he isn't the one suffering), and a lot of the stuff she did in her film regarding Eric or her friends wouldn't have happened (ie, she wouldn't have saved Flounder from becoming shark food, she wouldn't have saved Sebastian from becoming Grimsby's dinner, and she certainly wouldn't have simply let Eric marry Vanessa and thus potentially damn herself as a result.). And she's not dumb either. She was also very reluctant to go to Ursula from the start (it took a lot of sweet-talking and underhanded tactics from both Ursula herself and her eels to even convince her to go there, even AFTER Triton blew up her grotto).

      As far as Eric, I really don't see how being a genuinely nice guy is a mark against him. I mean, what, do you want him to act like Hans and put up a show and stab you in the back and think that's good character development?

      And Ariel and Eric didn't fall for each other for their looks. Even ignoring that Eric fell in love with her for her voice, with looks playing no real factor into his obsession with her, he also considered giving up his dream woman for Ariel back when she was still mute. And for Ariel, she also observed Eric's various actions up to and during the hurricane, many of which would grant Eric a medal of honor if he were in the American forces and certainly considered a good guy, so she definitely couldn't have fallen for him just because of his looks. Yes, she may have explicitly mentioned that she found Eric handsome, but the fact that she was observing him should not be ignored.

      The one thing I can agree with you on, at least to an extent, is your second-to-last paragraph. That, as well as The Little Mermaid pretty much being the reason there's still a Disney franchise.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyCWS wrote: I quite like The Little Mermaid, but my main problem with it is the two main characters.

      I though Ariel was dumb and quite selfish. I get that she wanted to explore the human world, and I have no problem with that, but the way she did it was just ridiculous. She made a deal with the most obviously evil person ever, in which she had 3 days to kiss a guy she'd barely met, all whilst being completely mute, and if she fails, her life is effectively over. Whilst doing all this, she puts herself, her friends, and her family in danger. I can see why people love her (she's free spirited, adventurous, follows her dreams etc.), but I just don't feel that way. 

      Eric was just bland. He was just some typical nice guy with very little humour or charisma. He was just the guy that Ariel falls in love with. I will give Eric some credit for killing the villain, which is something that few Disney heroes actually do.

      Also, Ariel and Eric clearly fell in love with each other because of their looks. Ariel fell in love with Eric before even meeting him, and Eric fell in love with Ariel without her ever talking to him. It just didn't feel real in my opinion.

      But hey, there are still plenty of positives too. Ursula is one of my favourite Disney villains, the soundtrack is great (although Kiss the Girl always gets stuck in my head), and I liked Sebastian and Flounder. Although it's not my favourite, I will always appreciate that it marked the start of the Disney Renaissance era.

      I've never understood people who spam their hatred of things like Disney films all over the internet. Most Disney films are seriously harmless and inoffensive, and they do so much more good than bad. Some films have actually managed to change people's lives for the better. Sure, they may sometimes not live up to the hype, but if they are making millions of people happy, then why do some people feel the need to bring them down?

      Anyway, that's my take on it. I hope that I haven't seemed too unfair. I've only seen the film once, so if I've got anything wrong, feel free to correct me. 

      I typed a lot of stuff up responding point by point, but for some reason, it did not take, so maybe I'll keep it short and sweet:

      Ariel, if she truly were selfish, would have acted exactly like Emperor Kuzco in the beginning of The Emperor's New Groove (ie, an unpleasant jerk who not only literally didn't care about anyone who wasn't himself, but usually takes joy in suffering so long as he isn't the one suffering), and a lot of the stuff she did in her film regarding Eric or her friends wouldn't have happened (ie, she wouldn't have saved Flounder from becoming shark food, she wouldn't have saved Sebastian from becoming Grimsby's dinner, and she certainly wouldn't have simply let Eric marry Vanessa and thus potentially damn herself as a result.). And she's not dumb either. She was also very reluctant to go to Ursula from the start (it took a lot of sweet-talking and underhanded tactics from both Ursula herself and her eels to even convince her to go there, even AFTER Triton blew up her grotto).

      As far as Eric, I really don't see how being a genuinely nice guy is a mark against him. I mean, what, do you want him to act like Hans and put up a show and stab you in the back and think that's good character development?

      And Ariel and Eric didn't fall for each other for their looks. Even ignoring that Eric fell in love with her for her voice, with looks playing no real factor into his obsession with her, he also considered giving up his dream woman for Ariel back when she was still mute. And for Ariel, she also observed Eric's various actions up to and during the hurricane, many of which would grant Eric a medal of honor if he were in the American forces and certainly considered a good guy, so she definitely couldn't have fallen for him just because of his looks. Yes, she may have explicitly mentioned that she found Eric handsome, but the fact that she was observing him should not be ignored.

      The one thing I can agree with you on, at least to an extent, is your second-to-last paragraph. That, as well as The Little Mermaid pretty much being the reason there's still a Disney franchise.

      Ariel went after something she wanted and put herself and others in danger doing it. In my eyes, that's selfish. I'm not saying that she doesn't care about anyone else, but she didn't seem to think about how her actions could affect others.

      I realise that Ursula used a lot of tricks to get Ariel to sign the contract, but Ariel clearly didn't think it through. She had 3 days to kiss a man she'd barely met, without talking to him, and if she failed, she would become prisoner to the "sea witch". I don't care how manipulative Ursula was, signing the contract was a dumb move.

      I'm not saying that being a nice guy is a bad thing. My problem with Eric was that being a nice guy was the only thing about him. He was so one-dimensional. Princes like Naveen and Flynn Rider had a bit of charisma, something that Eric seriously lacked. There are plenty of unique and developed characters, but Eric isn't one of them.

      I might be wrong about Ariel and Eric falling in love because of their looks, but that's how I saw it. Maybe I'll have to rewatch the film to check this. Eric falling in love with a voice though...come on, isn't that a bit ridiculous? 

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    • DisneyCWS wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyCWS wrote: I quite like The Little Mermaid, but my main problem with it is the two main characters.

      I though Ariel was dumb and quite selfish. I get that she wanted to explore the human world, and I have no problem with that, but the way she did it was just ridiculous. She made a deal with the most obviously evil person ever, in which she had 3 days to kiss a guy she'd barely met, all whilst being completely mute, and if she fails, her life is effectively over. Whilst doing all this, she puts herself, her friends, and her family in danger. I can see why people love her (she's free spirited, adventurous, follows her dreams etc.), but I just don't feel that way. 

      Eric was just bland. He was just some typical nice guy with very little humour or charisma. He was just the guy that Ariel falls in love with. I will give Eric some credit for killing the villain, which is something that few Disney heroes actually do.

      Also, Ariel and Eric clearly fell in love with each other because of their looks. Ariel fell in love with Eric before even meeting him, and Eric fell in love with Ariel without her ever talking to him. It just didn't feel real in my opinion.

      But hey, there are still plenty of positives too. Ursula is one of my favourite Disney villains, the soundtrack is great (although Kiss the Girl always gets stuck in my head), and I liked Sebastian and Flounder. Although it's not my favourite, I will always appreciate that it marked the start of the Disney Renaissance era.

      I've never understood people who spam their hatred of things like Disney films all over the internet. Most Disney films are seriously harmless and inoffensive, and they do so much more good than bad. Some films have actually managed to change people's lives for the better. Sure, they may sometimes not live up to the hype, but if they are making millions of people happy, then why do some people feel the need to bring them down?

      Anyway, that's my take on it. I hope that I haven't seemed too unfair. I've only seen the film once, so if I've got anything wrong, feel free to correct me. 

      I typed a lot of stuff up responding point by point, but for some reason, it did not take, so maybe I'll keep it short and sweet:

      Ariel, if she truly were selfish, would have acted exactly like Emperor Kuzco in the beginning of The Emperor's New Groove (ie, an unpleasant jerk who not only literally didn't care about anyone who wasn't himself, but usually takes joy in suffering so long as he isn't the one suffering), and a lot of the stuff she did in her film regarding Eric or her friends wouldn't have happened (ie, she wouldn't have saved Flounder from becoming shark food, she wouldn't have saved Sebastian from becoming Grimsby's dinner, and she certainly wouldn't have simply let Eric marry Vanessa and thus potentially damn herself as a result.). And she's not dumb either. She was also very reluctant to go to Ursula from the start (it took a lot of sweet-talking and underhanded tactics from both Ursula herself and her eels to even convince her to go there, even AFTER Triton blew up her grotto).

      As far as Eric, I really don't see how being a genuinely nice guy is a mark against him. I mean, what, do you want him to act like Hans and put up a show and stab you in the back and think that's good character development?

      And Ariel and Eric didn't fall for each other for their looks. Even ignoring that Eric fell in love with her for her voice, with looks playing no real factor into his obsession with her, he also considered giving up his dream woman for Ariel back when she was still mute. And for Ariel, she also observed Eric's various actions up to and during the hurricane, many of which would grant Eric a medal of honor if he were in the American forces and certainly considered a good guy, so she definitely couldn't have fallen for him just because of his looks. Yes, she may have explicitly mentioned that she found Eric handsome, but the fact that she was observing him should not be ignored.

      The one thing I can agree with you on, at least to an extent, is your second-to-last paragraph. That, as well as The Little Mermaid pretty much being the reason there's still a Disney franchise.

      Ariel went after something she wanted and put herself and others in danger doing it. In my eyes, that's selfish. I'm not saying that she doesn't care about anyone else, but she didn't seem to think about how her actions could affect others.

      I realise that Ursula used a lot of tricks to get Ariel to sign the contract, but Ariel clearly didn't think it through. She had 3 days to kiss a man she'd barely met, without talking to him, and if she failed, she would become prisoner to the "sea witch". I don't care how manipulative Ursula was, signing the contract was a dumb move.

      I'm not saying that being a nice guy is a bad thing. My problem with Eric was that being a nice guy was the only thing about him. He was so one-dimensional. Princes like Naveen and Flynn Rider had a bit of charisma, something that Eric seriously lacked. There are plenty of unique and developed characters, but Eric isn't one of them.

      I might be wrong about Ariel and Eric falling in love because of their looks, but that's how I saw it. Maybe I'll have to rewatch the film to check this. Eric falling in love with a voice though...come on, isn't that a bit ridiculous? 

      Ariel has her flaws such as naivety, recklessness and that kind of stuff, but selfish definitely ain't one of them. Let me put it this way: If Ariel were truly selfish, for example, she wouldn't have risked her life to save Flounder from Glut. Quite the opposite, actually, the second he knocks himself off, she'd probably watch him get eaten and pretty much say the same things Kefka did when Lightning killed Kuja in Dissidia 012. And she certainly would not have let Eric marry Vanessa in the first place, especially when it meant the very given probability that she'd suffer damnation by Ursula if she let him. Now, Merida, I will fully acknowledge that she was indeed VERY selfish in her actions.

      It's called desperation. I've heard of plenty of instances where people when put through an extremely tough situation would do stuff they wouldn't even consider doing normally. And besides, personally, I thought Belle's exposing the Beast to a congregated mob, including ESPECIALLY the same guy who orchestrated that whole mob in the first place just to force her hand in marriage, was FAR more stupid than what Ariel did. At least with Ariel, she didn't really have anything to indicate Ursula hadn't changed for the better, and overall had some reluctance to the deal. Belle would have known full well what Gaston was truly like ESPECIALLY by that point, and definitely would have known that, once the villagers were a ginned up mob, there IS no point in reasoning with them, and in fact, exposing the Beast to the villagers would have just resulted in them killing the Beast (heck, when Belle quickly deduced Gaston's role in the mob was, he didn't even attempt to deny it). Not to mention Gaston isn't even THAT manipulative at all considering he loudly gloated enough key details of his plan to blackmail Belle in front of a crowded tavern to ensure even kids understood what he was planning, much less the people in the tavern. That, if anything, was FAR worse than what occurred with Ariel, who at least had the benefit of the doubt of Ursula actually hiding stuff. Besides, it's actually very possible for people to fall in love even if they can't even talk if they display other qualities to compensate. I remember seeing one of those Kay commercials where a man and woman going through Christmas gifts and gives the woman, someone who was clearly mute since she couldn't even speak and they used sign language, a Christmas gift in the form of some sort of necklace. As a matter of fact, she was actually succeeding in getting Eric and herself to fall in love with each other in SPITE of her being mute, enough that Ursula actually panicked at the idea that Ariel actually WOULD win her end of the bargain fair and square (that's also the reason why Ursula decided to disguise herself as Vanessa). And you also should know that merely talking with people or even meeting them face to face isn't quite enough to gauge a character anyways. Look at the movie your avatar was from: Frozen. Hans and Anna met each other and interacted quite a bit by talking with each other. Turns out Hans was just putting up a show and planning to have her killed to ascend the throne.

      I do find Flynn Rider okay, especially when he did go through a believable character arc from what I've heard of him, but I'm not too sure about Naveen. Look, simply pulling a 180 isn't enough to make a good character. I mean, look, I for one would NOT support a character, good or bad, doing something like this to indicate character development, so I'm not fond of those kinds of things ordinarily where they just pull a 180 for no real reason. Beast and possibly Flynn Rider are probably the only ones who do a believable character development arc. And I really wouldn't say being a genuinely nice guy is necessarily one-dimensional. There are plenty of people who are genuinely nice guys in real life, just as there are plenty of people in real life who are openly card-carrying villains (and yes, card carrying villains do exist. I'd cite an example, but I can't because otherwise my post would get deleted. I'll give you a hint of one real life example, though: he was a major figure in the French Revolution and has a certain philia/negative character trait named after him.).

      Well, that woman with a voice DID save his life, so he does at least have a reason for that. I'd say that Gaston falling for Belle literally just for her looks is ridiculous. And when you do rewatch the film, pay close attention to Ariel when she first witnesses Eric, and how Eric was behaving during that same time, that should point to you that, yes, she did indeed witness Eric's other qualities.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyCWS wrote:


      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyCWS wrote: I quite like The Little Mermaid, but my main problem with it is the two main characters.

      I though Ariel was dumb and quite selfish. I get that she wanted to explore the human world, and I have no problem with that, but the way she did it was just ridiculous. She made a deal with the most obviously evil person ever, in which she had 3 days to kiss a guy she'd barely met, all whilst being completely mute, and if she fails, her life is effectively over. Whilst doing all this, she puts herself, her friends, and her family in danger. I can see why people love her (she's free spirited, adventurous, follows her dreams etc.), but I just don't feel that way. 

      Eric was just bland. He was just some typical nice guy with very little humour or charisma. He was just the guy that Ariel falls in love with. I will give Eric some credit for killing the villain, which is something that few Disney heroes actually do.

      Also, Ariel and Eric clearly fell in love with each other because of their looks. Ariel fell in love with Eric before even meeting him, and Eric fell in love with Ariel without her ever talking to him. It just didn't feel real in my opinion.

      But hey, there are still plenty of positives too. Ursula is one of my favourite Disney villains, the soundtrack is great (although Kiss the Girl always gets stuck in my head), and I liked Sebastian and Flounder. Although it's not my favourite, I will always appreciate that it marked the start of the Disney Renaissance era.

      I've never understood people who spam their hatred of things like Disney films all over the internet. Most Disney films are seriously harmless and inoffensive, and they do so much more good than bad. Some films have actually managed to change people's lives for the better. Sure, they may sometimes not live up to the hype, but if they are making millions of people happy, then why do some people feel the need to bring them down?

      Anyway, that's my take on it. I hope that I haven't seemed too unfair. I've only seen the film once, so if I've got anything wrong, feel free to correct me. 

      I typed a lot of stuff up responding point by point, but for some reason, it did not take, so maybe I'll keep it short and sweet:

      Ariel, if she truly were selfish, would have acted exactly like Emperor Kuzco in the beginning of The Emperor's New Groove (ie, an unpleasant jerk who not only literally didn't care about anyone who wasn't himself, but usually takes joy in suffering so long as he isn't the one suffering), and a lot of the stuff she did in her film regarding Eric or her friends wouldn't have happened (ie, she wouldn't have saved Flounder from becoming shark food, she wouldn't have saved Sebastian from becoming Grimsby's dinner, and she certainly wouldn't have simply let Eric marry Vanessa and thus potentially damn herself as a result.). And she's not dumb either. She was also very reluctant to go to Ursula from the start (it took a lot of sweet-talking and underhanded tactics from both Ursula herself and her eels to even convince her to go there, even AFTER Triton blew up her grotto).

      As far as Eric, I really don't see how being a genuinely nice guy is a mark against him. I mean, what, do you want him to act like Hans and put up a show and stab you in the back and think that's good character development?

      And Ariel and Eric didn't fall for each other for their looks. Even ignoring that Eric fell in love with her for her voice, with looks playing no real factor into his obsession with her, he also considered giving up his dream woman for Ariel back when she was still mute. And for Ariel, she also observed Eric's various actions up to and during the hurricane, many of which would grant Eric a medal of honor if he were in the American forces and certainly considered a good guy, so she definitely couldn't have fallen for him just because of his looks. Yes, she may have explicitly mentioned that she found Eric handsome, but the fact that she was observing him should not be ignored.

      The one thing I can agree with you on, at least to an extent, is your second-to-last paragraph. That, as well as The Little Mermaid pretty much being the reason there's still a Disney franchise.

      Ariel went after something she wanted and put herself and others in danger doing it. In my eyes, that's selfish. I'm not saying that she doesn't care about anyone else, but she didn't seem to think about how her actions could affect others.

      I realise that Ursula used a lot of tricks to get Ariel to sign the contract, but Ariel clearly didn't think it through. She had 3 days to kiss a man she'd barely met, without talking to him, and if she failed, she would become prisoner to the "sea witch". I don't care how manipulative Ursula was, signing the contract was a dumb move.

      I'm not saying that being a nice guy is a bad thing. My problem with Eric was that being a nice guy was the only thing about him. He was so one-dimensional. Princes like Naveen and Flynn Rider had a bit of charisma, something that Eric seriously lacked. There are plenty of unique and developed characters, but Eric isn't one of them.

      I might be wrong about Ariel and Eric falling in love because of their looks, but that's how I saw it. Maybe I'll have to rewatch the film to check this. Eric falling in love with a voice though...come on, isn't that a bit ridiculous? 

      Ariel has her flaws such as naivety, recklessness and that kind of stuff, but selfish definitely ain't one of them. Let me put it this way: If Ariel were truly selfish, for example, she wouldn't have risked her life to save Flounder from Glut. Quite the opposite, actually, the second he knocks himself off, she'd probably watch him get eaten and pretty much say the same things Kefka did when Lightning killed Kuja in Dissidia 012. And she certainly would not have let Eric marry Vanessa in the first place, especially when it meant the very given probability that she'd suffer damnation by Ursula if she let him. Now, Merida, I will fully acknowledge that she was indeed VERY selfish in her actions.

      It's called desperation. I've heard of plenty of instances where people when put through an extremely tough situation would do stuff they wouldn't even consider doing normally. And besides, personally, I thought Belle's exposing the Beast to a congregated mob, including ESPECIALLY the same guy who orchestrated that whole mob in the first place just to force her hand in marriage, was FAR more stupid than what Ariel did. At least with Ariel, she didn't really have anything to indicate Ursula hadn't changed for the better, and overall had some reluctance to the deal. Belle would have known full well what Gaston was truly like ESPECIALLY by that point, and definitely would have known that, once the villagers were a ginned up mob, there IS no point in reasoning with them, and in fact, exposing the Beast to the villagers would have just resulted in them killing the Beast (heck, when Belle quickly deduced Gaston's role in the mob was, he didn't even attempt to deny it). Not to mention Gaston isn't even THAT manipulative at all considering he loudly gloated enough key details of his plan to blackmail Belle in front of a crowded tavern to ensure even kids understood what he was planning, much less the people in the tavern. That, if anything, was FAR worse than what occurred with Ariel, who at least had the benefit of the doubt of Ursula actually hiding stuff. Besides, it's actually very possible for people to fall in love even if they can't even talk if they display other qualities to compensate. I remember seeing one of those Kay commercials where a man and woman going through Christmas gifts and gives the woman, someone who was clearly mute since she couldn't even speak and they used sign language, a Christmas gift in the form of some sort of necklace. As a matter of fact, she was actually succeeding in getting Eric and herself to fall in love with each other in SPITE of her being mute, enough that Ursula actually panicked at the idea that Ariel actually WOULD win her end of the bargain fair and square (that's also the reason why Ursula decided to disguise herself as Vanessa). And you also should know that merely talking with people or even meeting them face to face isn't quite enough to gauge a character anyways. Look at the movie your avatar was from: Frozen. Hans and Anna met each other and interacted quite a bit by talking with each other. Turns out Hans was just putting up a show and planning to have her killed to ascend the throne.

      I do find Flynn Rider okay, especially when he did go through a believable character arc from what I've heard of him, but I'm not too sure about Naveen. Look, simply pulling a 180 isn't enough to make a good character. I mean, look, I for one would NOT support a character, good or bad, doing something like this to indicate character development, so I'm not fond of those kinds of things ordinarily where they just pull a 180 for no real reason. Beast and possibly Flynn Rider are probably the only ones who do a believable character development arc. And I really wouldn't say being a genuinely nice guy is necessarily one-dimensional. There are plenty of people who are genuinely nice guys in real life, just as there are plenty of people in real life who are openly card-carrying villains (and yes, card carrying villains do exist. I'd cite an example, but I can't because otherwise my post would get deleted. I'll give you a hint of one real life example, though: he was a major figure in the French Revolution and has a certain philia/negative character trait named after him.).

      Well, that woman with a voice DID save his life, so he does at least have a reason for that. I'd say that Gaston falling for Belle literally just for her looks is ridiculous. And when you do rewatch the film, pay close attention to Ariel when she first witnesses Eric, and how Eric was behaving during that same time, that should point to you that, yes, she did indeed witness Eric's other qualities.

      Alright, maybe "selfish" is the wrong word. But she's very impulsive and this gets her and others in great danger. She didn't seem to think her decisions through and that's something that I dislike about her.

      I don't really see why you're bringing up Belle, but since we're on the subject, Belle exposed Beast to the mob because her father had told them about Beast, and they all thought he was crazy and were going to throw him in a mental institute. And Belle is never really manipulated by Gaston. She never makes any deals with him, and from the beginning of the film doesn't show any interest in marrying him. 

      I'm not saying it's impossible for people to fall in love without talking to each other, but communicating definitely helps A LOT (and sign language is communicating). Although Ariel's plan started working, it seemed kinda flukey. Almost all other men wouldn't fall in love with a girl without being able to talk to her. Sure, sometimes just talking isn't enough, but it helps more than anything else in my opinion. 

      I'm not saying that a character pulling a sudden 180 makes them a good character, and that was never part of my point. My point is that Eric has very few personality traits except for the fact that he's kind. I enjoyed watching people like Flynn and Naveen because they had some humour and charisma. And I realise that there are people like Eric in real life, but the truth is that realism is dull. If every Disney film was realistic and showed the realistic standard everyday lives of people, then I wouldn't watch Disney films. I just think that Eric should've had more about him than just being a nice guy, because otherwise he's just like the princes from the older Disney princess films.

      I'm probably wrong with my "they fell in love with each other because of their looks" comment. I've only seen the film once. I'm sure there's stuff I've forgotten. As for your point about Gaston falling for Belle, Gaston only wanted Belle to be his trophy wife. He was never in love with her. He just wanted to have the most beautiful girl in town by his side to show off and boost his ego. Therefore, it made perfect sense that he was only interested in her looks.

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    • Ariel didn't know Ursula was wishing to deceive her and capture her father at the same time DisneyCWS. Ariel isn't dumb, no not at all. Ariel had little choice since her father was first scared of the humans thinking he knew everything about them, that's just like Simba is with the Lion Guard episode villains who don't really fit the list Reirei for example, Simba sees her mean, when no her scenes are about being considerate. Not Cruelty. ¬†


      Triton broke lovely Ariel's heart detroying her human treasure collection so she felt like her dream would never come true, she felt like if she wished to be human she needed to look like one. So Ariel went to Ursula. Ursula's the mean arrogant one, Ariel shows courage. Ariel's not selfish she just wished to prove to her father that some humans showed kindness DisneyCWS.

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    • With what Writerblock wrote on my message wall I now see many don't understand Ariel's sincere courage, even if they understand her love. Following your heart and fighting¬† just because you disagree there are people can't tell the difference enough to see, Ariel just wants to prove enough about kindness in the humans, and the level of safety she'd be in, she's not doing to be mean. Ariel's trying to be loyal to both sides using her courage during the adventure.

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    • DisneyCWS wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyCWS wrote:


      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyCWS wrote: I quite like The Little Mermaid, but my main problem with it is the two main characters.

      I though Ariel was dumb and quite selfish. I get that she wanted to explore the human world, and I have no problem with that, but the way she did it was just ridiculous. She made a deal with the most obviously evil person ever, in which she had 3 days to kiss a guy she'd barely met, all whilst being completely mute, and if she fails, her life is effectively over. Whilst doing all this, she puts herself, her friends, and her family in danger. I can see why people love her (she's free spirited, adventurous, follows her dreams etc.), but I just don't feel that way. 

      Eric was just bland. He was just some typical nice guy with very little humour or charisma. He was just the guy that Ariel falls in love with. I will give Eric some credit for killing the villain, which is something that few Disney heroes actually do.

      Also, Ariel and Eric clearly fell in love with each other because of their looks. Ariel fell in love with Eric before even meeting him, and Eric fell in love with Ariel without her ever talking to him. It just didn't feel real in my opinion.

      But hey, there are still plenty of positives too. Ursula is one of my favourite Disney villains, the soundtrack is great (although Kiss the Girl always gets stuck in my head), and I liked Sebastian and Flounder. Although it's not my favourite, I will always appreciate that it marked the start of the Disney Renaissance era.

      I've never understood people who spam their hatred of things like Disney films all over the internet. Most Disney films are seriously harmless and inoffensive, and they do so much more good than bad. Some films have actually managed to change people's lives for the better. Sure, they may sometimes not live up to the hype, but if they are making millions of people happy, then why do some people feel the need to bring them down?

      Anyway, that's my take on it. I hope that I haven't seemed too unfair. I've only seen the film once, so if I've got anything wrong, feel free to correct me. 

      I typed a lot of stuff up responding point by point, but for some reason, it did not take, so maybe I'll keep it short and sweet:

      Ariel, if she truly were selfish, would have acted exactly like Emperor Kuzco in the beginning of The Emperor's New Groove (ie, an unpleasant jerk who not only literally didn't care about anyone who wasn't himself, but usually takes joy in suffering so long as he isn't the one suffering), and a lot of the stuff she did in her film regarding Eric or her friends wouldn't have happened (ie, she wouldn't have saved Flounder from becoming shark food, she wouldn't have saved Sebastian from becoming Grimsby's dinner, and she certainly wouldn't have simply let Eric marry Vanessa and thus potentially damn herself as a result.). And she's not dumb either. She was also very reluctant to go to Ursula from the start (it took a lot of sweet-talking and underhanded tactics from both Ursula herself and her eels to even convince her to go there, even AFTER Triton blew up her grotto).

      As far as Eric, I really don't see how being a genuinely nice guy is a mark against him. I mean, what, do you want him to act like Hans and put up a show and stab you in the back and think that's good character development?

      And Ariel and Eric didn't fall for each other for their looks. Even ignoring that Eric fell in love with her for her voice, with looks playing no real factor into his obsession with her, he also considered giving up his dream woman for Ariel back when she was still mute. And for Ariel, she also observed Eric's various actions up to and during the hurricane, many of which would grant Eric a medal of honor if he were in the American forces and certainly considered a good guy, so she definitely couldn't have fallen for him just because of his looks. Yes, she may have explicitly mentioned that she found Eric handsome, but the fact that she was observing him should not be ignored.

      The one thing I can agree with you on, at least to an extent, is your second-to-last paragraph. That, as well as The Little Mermaid pretty much being the reason there's still a Disney franchise.

      Ariel went after something she wanted and put herself and others in danger doing it. In my eyes, that's selfish. I'm not saying that she doesn't care about anyone else, but she didn't seem to think about how her actions could affect others.

      I realise that Ursula used a lot of tricks to get Ariel to sign the contract, but Ariel clearly didn't think it through. She had 3 days to kiss a man she'd barely met, without talking to him, and if she failed, she would become prisoner to the "sea witch". I don't care how manipulative Ursula was, signing the contract was a dumb move.

      I'm not saying that being a nice guy is a bad thing. My problem with Eric was that being a nice guy was the only thing about him. He was so one-dimensional. Princes like Naveen and Flynn Rider had a bit of charisma, something that Eric seriously lacked. There are plenty of unique and developed characters, but Eric isn't one of them.

      I might be wrong about Ariel and Eric falling in love because of their looks, but that's how I saw it. Maybe I'll have to rewatch the film to check this. Eric falling in love with a voice though...come on, isn't that a bit ridiculous? 

      Ariel has her flaws such as naivety, recklessness and that kind of stuff, but selfish definitely ain't one of them. Let me put it this way: If Ariel were truly selfish, for example, she wouldn't have risked her life to save Flounder from Glut. Quite the opposite, actually, the second he knocks himself off, she'd probably watch him get eaten and pretty much say the same things Kefka did when Lightning killed Kuja in Dissidia 012. And she certainly would not have let Eric marry Vanessa in the first place, especially when it meant the very given probability that she'd suffer damnation by Ursula if she let him. Now, Merida, I will fully acknowledge that she was indeed VERY selfish in her actions.

      It's called desperation. I've heard of plenty of instances where people when put through an extremely tough situation would do stuff they wouldn't even consider doing normally. And besides, personally, I thought Belle's exposing the Beast to a congregated mob, including ESPECIALLY the same guy who orchestrated that whole mob in the first place just to force her hand in marriage, was FAR more stupid than what Ariel did. At least with Ariel, she didn't really have anything to indicate Ursula hadn't changed for the better, and overall had some reluctance to the deal. Belle would have known full well what Gaston was truly like ESPECIALLY by that point, and definitely would have known that, once the villagers were a ginned up mob, there IS no point in reasoning with them, and in fact, exposing the Beast to the villagers would have just resulted in them killing the Beast (heck, when Belle quickly deduced Gaston's role in the mob was, he didn't even attempt to deny it). Not to mention Gaston isn't even THAT manipulative at all considering he loudly gloated enough key details of his plan to blackmail Belle in front of a crowded tavern to ensure even kids understood what he was planning, much less the people in the tavern. That, if anything, was FAR worse than what occurred with Ariel, who at least had the benefit of the doubt of Ursula actually hiding stuff. Besides, it's actually very possible for people to fall in love even if they can't even talk if they display other qualities to compensate. I remember seeing one of those Kay commercials where a man and woman going through Christmas gifts and gives the woman, someone who was clearly mute since she couldn't even speak and they used sign language, a Christmas gift in the form of some sort of necklace. As a matter of fact, she was actually succeeding in getting Eric and herself to fall in love with each other in SPITE of her being mute, enough that Ursula actually panicked at the idea that Ariel actually WOULD win her end of the bargain fair and square (that's also the reason why Ursula decided to disguise herself as Vanessa). And you also should know that merely talking with people or even meeting them face to face isn't quite enough to gauge a character anyways. Look at the movie your avatar was from: Frozen. Hans and Anna met each other and interacted quite a bit by talking with each other. Turns out Hans was just putting up a show and planning to have her killed to ascend the throne.

      I do find Flynn Rider okay, especially when he did go through a believable character arc from what I've heard of him, but I'm not too sure about Naveen. Look, simply pulling a 180 isn't enough to make a good character. I mean, look, I for one would NOT support a character, good or bad, doing something like this to indicate character development, so I'm not fond of those kinds of things ordinarily where they just pull a 180 for no real reason. Beast and possibly Flynn Rider are probably the only ones who do a believable character development arc. And I really wouldn't say being a genuinely nice guy is necessarily one-dimensional. There are plenty of people who are genuinely nice guys in real life, just as there are plenty of people in real life who are openly card-carrying villains (and yes, card carrying villains do exist. I'd cite an example, but I can't because otherwise my post would get deleted. I'll give you a hint of one real life example, though: he was a major figure in the French Revolution and has a certain philia/negative character trait named after him.).

      Well, that woman with a voice DID save his life, so he does at least have a reason for that. I'd say that Gaston falling for Belle literally just for her looks is ridiculous. And when you do rewatch the film, pay close attention to Ariel when she first witnesses Eric, and how Eric was behaving during that same time, that should point to you that, yes, she did indeed witness Eric's other qualities.

      Alright, maybe "selfish" is the wrong word. But she's very impulsive and this gets her and others in great danger. She didn't seem to think her decisions through and that's something that I dislike about her.

      I don't really see why you're bringing up Belle, but since we're on the subject, Belle exposed Beast to the mob because her father had told them about Beast, and they all thought he was crazy and were going to throw him in a mental institute. And Belle is never really manipulated by Gaston. She never makes any deals with him, and from the beginning of the film doesn't show any interest in marrying him. 

      I'm not saying it's impossible for people to fall in love without talking to each other, but communicating definitely helps A LOT (and sign language is communicating). Although Ariel's plan started working, it seemed kinda flukey. Almost all other men wouldn't fall in love with a girl without being able to talk to her. Sure, sometimes just talking isn't enough, but it helps more than anything else in my opinion. 

      I'm not saying that a character pulling a sudden 180 makes them a good character, and that was never part of my point. My point is that Eric has very few personality traits except for the fact that he's kind. I enjoyed watching people like Flynn and Naveen because they had some humour and charisma. And I realise that there are people like Eric in real life, but the truth is that realism is dull. If every Disney film was realistic and showed the realistic standard everyday lives of people, then I wouldn't watch Disney films. I just think that Eric should've had more about him than just being a nice guy, because otherwise he's just like the princes from the older Disney princess films.

      I'm probably wrong with my "they fell in love with each other because of their looks" comment. I've only seen the film once. I'm sure there's stuff I've forgotten. As for your point about Gaston falling for Belle, Gaston only wanted Belle to be his trophy wife. He was never in love with her. He just wanted to have the most beautiful girl in town by his side to show off and boost his ego. Therefore, it made perfect sense that he was only interested in her looks.

      I'll agree with you on impulsive and how that's one of her flaws (of course, that being said, I wouldn't say her going to Ursula was her being impulsive, mostly because those who are impulsive don't generally hesitate to do something, which Ariel clearly did regarding even going to see Ursula, let alone entering the deal. Think how Jafar didn't hesitate at all about wishing to become a genie). However, I've seen a lot of heroes who WERE impulsive. Like Ash Ketchum, for example. Besides, I think LionGuard explained it a bit better than I can.

      So far as Belle, my main problem is that she went in, got the mirror and then exposed the Beast, thus causing the villagers, including Gaston, to inevitably decide to kill him, and most likely also risking the servants being killed because of her sheer stupidity. Yes, I get it, she was concerned about her dad being locked up, but she still shouldn't have done that because she most certainly would have been smart enough to know this, yet she didn't seem to even consider it. Even Ariel when she impulsively explored a sunken ship over going to that musical debut of hers at least had enough sense to realize that sharks were present in the area based on her suggestion to Flounder when he tried to fake sickness to get out of it. Had it been me in her situation, I wouldn't have even BOTHERED with the mirror precisely BECAUSE I'd realize full well just how that would carry the grave risk of harming my friends at the castle. What I'd do instead is just knock Gaston out with some plywood, knock out another villager while stealing his torch, then toss it at the paddywagon and set it on fire before Maurice could enter, all while making sure I wasn't seen at all, then while the villagers are distracted with finding water to put it out, I'd take the opportunity to get Maurice and Phillipe and skip town, also making sure I take Chip and the magic mirror in order to avoid leaving any trace of where we're headed, and I'd also make sure I'm not followed.

      And quite frankly, Ariel and Eric DID communicate as well anyways when meeting and during two of the three days. Offered to show her around the village, apologizing for Max's abrupt arrival, asking if she was familiar, mentioning she went through a whole ordeal, asking for her name, you name it.

      And maybe that kind of realism is kinda dull, but on the other hand, I'm not exactly fond of stuff like that Metal Gear video, where they have an ally all of a sudden out of the blue turning on you, and then it turning out it was a fake betrayal, so I'd take dullness ultimately.

      And for the last bit, correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't Gaston say/sing "When I met her, saw her, I said 'she's gorgeous' and I fell" in the opening song? That suggests that at the very least he did fall in love with her in a very loose and shallow sense of the term.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:
       
      I'll agree with you on impulsive and how that's one of her flaws (of course, that being said, I wouldn't say her going to Ursula was her being impulsive, mostly because those who are impulsive don't generally hesitate to do something, which Ariel clearly did regarding even going to see Ursula, let alone entering the deal. Think how Jafar didn't hesitate at all about wishing to become a genie). However, I've seen a lot of heroes who WERE impulsive. Like Ash Ketchum, for example. Besides, I think LionGuard explained it a bit better than I can.

      So far as Belle, my main problem is that she went in, got the mirror and then exposed the Beast, thus causing the villagers, including Gaston, to inevitably decide to kill him, and most likely also risking the servants being killed because of her sheer stupidity. Yes, I get it, she was concerned about her dad being locked up, but she still shouldn't have done that because she most certainly would have been smart enough to know this, yet she didn't seem to even consider it. Even Ariel when she impulsively explored a sunken ship over going to that musical debut of hers at least had enough sense to realize that sharks were present in the area based on her suggestion to Flounder when he tried to fake sickness to get out of it. Had it been me in her situation, I wouldn't have even BOTHERED with the mirror precisely BECAUSE I'd realize full well just how that would carry the grave risk of harming my friends at the castle. What I'd do instead is just knock Gaston out with some plywood, knock out another villager while stealing his torch, then toss it at the paddywagon and set it on fire before Maurice could enter, all while making sure I wasn't seen at all, then while the villagers are distracted with finding water to put it out, I'd take the opportunity to get Maurice and Phillipe and skip town, also making sure I take Chip and the magic mirror in order to avoid leaving any trace of where we're headed, and I'd also make sure I'm not followed.

      And quite frankly, Ariel and Eric DID communicate as well anyways when meeting and during two of the three days. Offered to show her around the village, apologizing for Max's abrupt arrival, asking if she was familiar, mentioning she went through a whole ordeal, asking for her name, you name it.

      And maybe that kind of realism is kinda dull, but on the other hand, I'm not exactly fond of stuff like that Metal Gear video, where they have an ally all of a sudden out of the blue turning on you, and then it turning out it was a fake betrayal, so I'd take dullness ultimately.

      And for the last bit, correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't Gaston say/sing "When I met her, saw her, I said 'she's gorgeous' and I fell" in the opening song? That suggests that at the very least he did fall in love with her in a very loose and shallow sense of the term.

      I'm not saying that being impulsive instantly makes you a bad character, but Ariel decided to make a deal with Ursula without thinking about the consequences. 

      The thing with Belle is that there was a sense of urgency. Her father was about to be locked up. She didn't have the time to think about it. And your suggestion about knocking out Gaston, how would she do that? Have you forgotten how muscular and athletic Gaston was? And then assaulting a random villager and setting the paddywagon on fire wouldn't have worked without anyone seeing. Not to mention, doing that would've probably caused just as much trouble as the mirror thing did.

      Ariel and Eric did kinda communicate, but not really. Eric said things to her, she would nod or make a facial expression. That barely counts as communication.

      And, for the last time, I'm not saying that Eric should've just pulled a sudden 180 and stabbed Ariel in the back. I just think that Eric had very little personality beyond being a nice guy. No charisma, no humour, none of that. And, as a result, I thought he was dull.

      Gaston did say that in the song, but he very clearly didn't fall for Belle. He only wanted her as a trophy.


      @LionGuardEscort198 

      I haven't seen Lion Guard, so I don't really know what you're referring to. 

      Ariel did have a choice. She could've refused to go along with a ridiculous contract. At the very least, she could've taken a few minutes to think about her plan before actually signing the contract. That's the difference between Ariel signing the contract and Belle exposing Beast to the mob. Belle had to act soon or her father would be locked up. Ariel easily had enough time to think about what she was signing. 

      I'm sure there are other ways of showing human kindness than trading away your voice for a pair of legs, with a 3 day time slot to kiss someone who was effectively a stranger, and if you fail you become one of Ursula's prisoners, thus endangering and upsetting yourself and others. 

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    • DisneyCWS wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:
       
      I'll agree with you on impulsive and how that's one of her flaws (of course, that being said, I wouldn't say her going to Ursula was her being impulsive, mostly because those who are impulsive don't generally hesitate to do something, which Ariel clearly did regarding even going to see Ursula, let alone entering the deal. Think how Jafar didn't hesitate at all about wishing to become a genie). However, I've seen a lot of heroes who WERE impulsive. Like Ash Ketchum, for example. Besides, I think LionGuard explained it a bit better than I can.

      So far as Belle, my main problem is that she went in, got the mirror and then exposed the Beast, thus causing the villagers, including Gaston, to inevitably decide to kill him, and most likely also risking the servants being killed because of her sheer stupidity. Yes, I get it, she was concerned about her dad being locked up, but she still shouldn't have done that because she most certainly would have been smart enough to know this, yet she didn't seem to even consider it. Even Ariel when she impulsively explored a sunken ship over going to that musical debut of hers at least had enough sense to realize that sharks were present in the area based on her suggestion to Flounder when he tried to fake sickness to get out of it. Had it been me in her situation, I wouldn't have even BOTHERED with the mirror precisely BECAUSE I'd realize full well just how that would carry the grave risk of harming my friends at the castle. What I'd do instead is just knock Gaston out with some plywood, knock out another villager while stealing his torch, then toss it at the paddywagon and set it on fire before Maurice could enter, all while making sure I wasn't seen at all, then while the villagers are distracted with finding water to put it out, I'd take the opportunity to get Maurice and Phillipe and skip town, also making sure I take Chip and the magic mirror in order to avoid leaving any trace of where we're headed, and I'd also make sure I'm not followed.

      And quite frankly, Ariel and Eric DID communicate as well anyways when meeting and during two of the three days. Offered to show her around the village, apologizing for Max's abrupt arrival, asking if she was familiar, mentioning she went through a whole ordeal, asking for her name, you name it.

      And maybe that kind of realism is kinda dull, but on the other hand, I'm not exactly fond of stuff like that Metal Gear video, where they have an ally all of a sudden out of the blue turning on you, and then it turning out it was a fake betrayal, so I'd take dullness ultimately.

      And for the last bit, correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't Gaston say/sing "When I met her, saw her, I said 'she's gorgeous' and I fell" in the opening song? That suggests that at the very least he did fall in love with her in a very loose and shallow sense of the term.

      I'm not saying that being impulsive instantly makes you a bad character, but Ariel decided to make a deal with Ursula without thinking about the consequences. 

      The thing with Belle is that there was a sense of urgency. Her father was about to be locked up. She didn't have the time to think about it. And your suggestion about knocking out Gaston, how would she do that? Have you forgotten how muscular and athletic Gaston was? And then assaulting a random villager and setting the paddywagon on fire wouldn't have worked without anyone seeing. Not to mention, doing that would've probably caused just as much trouble as the mirror thing did.

      Ariel and Eric did kinda communicate, but not really. Eric said things to her, she would nod or make a facial expression. That barely counts as communication.

      And, for the last time, I'm not saying that Eric should've just pulled a sudden 180 and stabbed Ariel in the back. I just think that Eric had very little personality beyond being a nice guy. No charisma, no humour, none of that. And, as a result, I thought he was dull.

      Gaston did say that in the song, but he very clearly didn't fall for Belle. He only wanted her as a trophy.


      @LionGuardEscort198 

      I haven't seen Lion Guard, so I don't really know what you're referring to. 

      Ariel did have a choice. She could've refused to go along with a ridiculous contract. At the very least, she could've taken a few minutes to think about her plan before actually signing the contract. That's the difference between Ariel signing the contract and Belle exposing Beast to the mob. Belle had to act soon or her father would be locked up. Ariel easily had enough time to think about what she was signing. 

      I'm sure there are other ways of showing human kindness than trading away your voice for a pair of legs, with a 3 day time slot to kiss someone who was effectively a stranger, and if you fail you become one of Ursula's prisoners, thus endangering and upsetting yourself and others. 

      Regarding Ariel not thinking about the consequences, let me remind you that when Ursula laid down the terms of the deal, Ariel explicitly said "If I were to do that, I wouldn't see my father or sisters again.", and this was referring to whichever way the deal went, whether she won or lost, and she said it in a very hesitant tone. She most CERTAINLY thought about the consequences (well, okay, she probably didn't know about the bit with Triton, but then again, there definitely wasn't any way she could have known). Heck, when Ursula mentioned the payment regarding her voice, Ariel actually attempted to question why her voice was even necessary and even tried to point out that she probably wouldn't even be able to communicate with Eric.

      So far as Gaston and the whole blackmail thing, him being muscular didn't stop Belle from flinging him into a mudpool much earlier. And besides, she also managed to lift Beast and Maurice up (twice in the former case, one of which is even on-screen), and Beast at least definitely would have been a LOT more muscular than Gaston ever could be, and both Beast and Maurice at least would have been at the very least heavier than Gaston if not a LOT larger. And besides, who said she needed to use her fists or legs to knock Gaston out? All that needed is something like plywood and a well timed strike to the back of the head with plywood, or even a glass bottle. You don't need to be muscular to pull that off. I'm pretty sure I could pull it off, and I'm very lean. And for the record, all of that would have taken me a few seconds to process, and probably only a few additional seconds. Heck, Batgirl from Arkham Knight DLC A Matter of Family was able to pull that off. If she could do it, I'm pretty sure Belle could (especially when Belle had enough high senses to actually splash away a downpour without even looking in the opening song, and enough upper body strength to actually lift the Beast up twice as well as Maurice, both of whom, again, would have been at least heavier than Gaston, if not much larger). And yeah, if she did it very loudly, she'd obviously get into trouble, but if she relied on stealth, she most certainly can accomplish it, never underestimate that. There have been plenty of times I actually snuck up on people and was silent before making myself known, and if I could do it, Belle most certainly could as well. So no, Belle was STILL stupid with that bit, urgency or not (I under similar circumstances would STILL not use the mirror, and would instead rely on stealth and knock people out without even drawing attention to myself, then set it on fire.). In fact, a lot of Special Forces groups need quick thinking and stealth to get the job done precisely because of their line of work.

      As far as Eric and Ariel, it's still communicating, though, and quite frankly, nodding and shaking heads, even pantomime which Ariel attempted to do, would still have been communicating. Probably the only attempt at communication she hasn't attempted to do was writing, and let's face it, there would have been plenty of problems with that mode anyways: 1. She'd need to match up Eric's language with whatever books she read (which plausibly would have to deal with at least as many languages as are present in whatever part of the European continent Atlantica is near), something that's exceedingly difficult even if she DIDN'T lose her voice. 2. There's little guarantee that Eric would completely believe her even if she DID successfully write it down, and 3., considering Ursula would have secretly kept tabs on Ariel via Flotsam and Jetsam, and based on how she had the latter party tip over Eric and Ariel's boat just seconds before they could kiss, I'm pretty sure they would have done something similar if she tried to write in the sand how she came there. The Recess episode Jinx had Gus try to write out what happened, but then one of the Ashleys bumped into Spinelli and then loudly argued with her, and then Ashley Armbruster then caused a stampede among the Kindergartners that destroyed Gus's writing before any of his friends had a chance to read it. So, yes, actually, Ariel DID communicate with Eric. She may not have communicated to your liking, but she certainly communicated with him. And either way, she certainly communicated with him far more than her predecessors did (heck, many times the princes didn't even learn the girls names until well after the fact).

      And as far as Ariel, you're also forgetting that Ariel didn't even plan to see Ursula before then, or that Triton more than played a role in her decision. Let me point out that right before the Under the Sea number, she actually DID have a plan to see Eric that didn't even involve Ursula, or even becoming human for that matter. This is in fact the exact dialogue that occurred:

      Ariel: I gotta see him again - tonight! Scuttle knows where he lives.

      Sebastian: Ariel - please. Will you get your head out of the clouds and back in the water where it belongs?

      Ariel: I'll swim up to his castle. Then Flounder will splash around to get his attention, and then with -

      This was in fact her initial plan of getting to find Eric. Ursula wasn't even an idea for her until right after Triton blew up her grotto when Flotsam and Jetsam literally suggested it to her, and even THERE, she outright refused despite her distress, with it taking F&J flicking the remains of Eric's statue toward her while "taking their leave" to convince her to even decide to go over there (not necessarily agree to the deal, just go over). And if you still don't believe me, here's yet another quote from the film, this time dealing with the eels' encountering her:

      Flotsam: Poor child.

      Jetsam: Poor, sweet child.

      Flotsam: She has a very serious problem

      Jetsam: If only there were something we could do.

      Flotsam: But there is something.

      Ariel: Who - who are you?

      Jetsam: Don't be scared.

      Flotsam: We represent someone who can help you.

      Jetsam: Someone who could make all your dreams come true.

      Flotsam and Jetsam: Just imagine -

      Jetsam: You and your prince -

      Flotsam and Jetsam: Together, forever. . . .

      Ariel: I don't understand.

      Jetsam: Ursula has great powers

      Ariel: The sea witch? Why, that's - I couldn't possibly - no! Get out of here! Leave me alone!

      Flotsam: Suit yourself.

      Jetsam: It was only a suggestion.

      [Jetsam flicks the statue's broken face towards Ariel.]

      Ariel: [Looking at the face] Wait.

      Flotsam and Jetsam: Yeeeeeeeeeess?

      Emphasis mine. Ariel actually refused F&J when they directly suggested she go see Ursula. The only reason they succeeded was by flicking the statue at her, that and her already being an emotional wreck over what Triton did earlier (I'm pretty sure if Triton hadn't done that and F&J tried the exact same thing, they definitely would not have been even remotely as successful.). And you can watch the movie again if you wish, because those lines were definitely in the movie (I may have taken them from the transcript here, but make no mistake, I definitely remember those lines from the movie). I owe a lot to Ariel, since alongside my parents, she was one of my main motivators to even overcome my autism enough to even be able to have a chance at interacting with society. And besides, I don't like it when people make grossly inaccurate statements about her. I've seen the film, and can even replay it in my head, and I definitely know she was not anything like you described her to be (well, okay, she was impulsive during the sunken ship bit and the time where she saw Eric's ship sailing above, maybe during her time at the village, but not the time during Ursula's deal). If I'm going to complain about a character, I'm going to make sure my complaints actually line up exactly with what is shown in the film.

        Loading editor
    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyCWS wrote:


      Weedle McHairybug wrote:
       
      I'll agree with you on impulsive and how that's one of her flaws (of course, that being said, I wouldn't say her going to Ursula was her being impulsive, mostly because those who are impulsive don't generally hesitate to do something, which Ariel clearly did regarding even going to see Ursula, let alone entering the deal. Think how Jafar didn't hesitate at all about wishing to become a genie). However, I've seen a lot of heroes who WERE impulsive. Like Ash Ketchum, for example. Besides, I think LionGuard explained it a bit better than I can.

      So far as Belle, my main problem is that she went in, got the mirror and then exposed the Beast, thus causing the villagers, including Gaston, to inevitably decide to kill him, and most likely also risking the servants being killed because of her sheer stupidity. Yes, I get it, she was concerned about her dad being locked up, but she still shouldn't have done that because she most certainly would have been smart enough to know this, yet she didn't seem to even consider it. Even Ariel when she impulsively explored a sunken ship over going to that musical debut of hers at least had enough sense to realize that sharks were present in the area based on her suggestion to Flounder when he tried to fake sickness to get out of it. Had it been me in her situation, I wouldn't have even BOTHERED with the mirror precisely BECAUSE I'd realize full well just how that would carry the grave risk of harming my friends at the castle. What I'd do instead is just knock Gaston out with some plywood, knock out another villager while stealing his torch, then toss it at the paddywagon and set it on fire before Maurice could enter, all while making sure I wasn't seen at all, then while the villagers are distracted with finding water to put it out, I'd take the opportunity to get Maurice and Phillipe and skip town, also making sure I take Chip and the magic mirror in order to avoid leaving any trace of where we're headed, and I'd also make sure I'm not followed.

      And quite frankly, Ariel and Eric DID communicate as well anyways when meeting and during two of the three days. Offered to show her around the village, apologizing for Max's abrupt arrival, asking if she was familiar, mentioning she went through a whole ordeal, asking for her name, you name it.

      And maybe that kind of realism is kinda dull, but on the other hand, I'm not exactly fond of stuff like that Metal Gear video, where they have an ally all of a sudden out of the blue turning on you, and then it turning out it was a fake betrayal, so I'd take dullness ultimately.

      And for the last bit, correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't Gaston say/sing "When I met her, saw her, I said 'she's gorgeous' and I fell" in the opening song? That suggests that at the very least he did fall in love with her in a very loose and shallow sense of the term.

      I'm not saying that being impulsive instantly makes you a bad character, but Ariel decided to make a deal with Ursula without thinking about the consequences. 

      The thing with Belle is that there was a sense of urgency. Her father was about to be locked up. She didn't have the time to think about it. And your suggestion about knocking out Gaston, how would she do that? Have you forgotten how muscular and athletic Gaston was? And then assaulting a random villager and setting the paddywagon on fire wouldn't have worked without anyone seeing. Not to mention, doing that would've probably caused just as much trouble as the mirror thing did.

      Ariel and Eric did kinda communicate, but not really. Eric said things to her, she would nod or make a facial expression. That barely counts as communication.

      And, for the last time, I'm not saying that Eric should've just pulled a sudden 180 and stabbed Ariel in the back. I just think that Eric had very little personality beyond being a nice guy. No charisma, no humour, none of that. And, as a result, I thought he was dull.

      Gaston did say that in the song, but he very clearly didn't fall for Belle. He only wanted her as a trophy.


      @LionGuardEscort198 

      I haven't seen Lion Guard, so I don't really know what you're referring to. 

      Ariel did have a choice. She could've refused to go along with a ridiculous contract. At the very least, she could've taken a few minutes to think about her plan before actually signing the contract. That's the difference between Ariel signing the contract and Belle exposing Beast to the mob. Belle had to act soon or her father would be locked up. Ariel easily had enough time to think about what she was signing. 

      I'm sure there are other ways of showing human kindness than trading away your voice for a pair of legs, with a 3 day time slot to kiss someone who was effectively a stranger, and if you fail you become one of Ursula's prisoners, thus endangering and upsetting yourself and others. 

      Regarding Ariel not thinking about the consequences, let me remind you that when Ursula laid down the terms of the deal, Ariel explicitly said "If I were to do that, I wouldn't see my father or sisters again.", and this was referring to whichever way the deal went, whether she won or lost, and she said it in a very hesitant tone. She most CERTAINLY thought about the consequences (well, okay, she probably didn't know about the bit with Triton, but then again, there definitely wasn't any way she could have known). Heck, when Ursula mentioned the payment regarding her voice, Ariel actually attempted to question why her voice was even necessary and even tried to point out that she probably wouldn't even be able to communicate with Eric.

      So far as Gaston and the whole blackmail thing, him being muscular didn't stop Belle from flinging him into a mudpool much earlier. And besides, she also managed to lift Beast and Maurice up (twice in the former case, one of which is even on-screen), and Beast at least definitely would have been a LOT more muscular than Gaston ever could be, and both Beast and Maurice at least would have been at the very least heavier than Gaston if not a LOT larger. And besides, who said she needed to use her fists or legs to knock Gaston out? All that needed is something like plywood and a well timed strike to the back of the head with plywood, or even a glass bottle. You don't need to be muscular to pull that off. I'm pretty sure I could pull it off, and I'm very lean. And for the record, all of that would have taken me a few seconds to process, and probably only a few additional seconds. Heck, Batgirl from Arkham Knight DLC A Matter of Family was able to pull that off. If she could do it, I'm pretty sure Belle could (especially when Belle had enough high senses to actually splash away a downpour without even looking in the opening song, and enough upper body strength to actually lift the Beast up twice as well as Maurice, both of whom, again, would have been at least heavier than Gaston, if not much larger). And yeah, if she did it very loudly, she'd obviously get into trouble, but if she relied on stealth, she most certainly can accomplish it, never underestimate that. There have been plenty of times I actually snuck up on people and was silent before making myself known, and if I could do it, Belle most certainly could as well. So no, Belle was STILL stupid with that bit, urgency or not (I under similar circumstances would STILL not use the mirror, and would instead rely on stealth and knock people out without even drawing attention to myself, then set it on fire.). In fact, a lot of Special Forces groups need quick thinking and stealth to get the job done precisely because of their line of work.

      As far as Eric and Ariel, it's still communicating, though, and quite frankly, nodding and shaking heads, even pantomime which Ariel attempted to do, would still have been communicating. Probably the only attempt at communication she hasn't attempted to do was writing, and let's face it, there would have been plenty of problems with that mode anyways: 1. She'd need to match up Eric's language with whatever books she read (which plausibly would have to deal with at least as many languages as are present in whatever part of the European continent Atlantica is near), something that's exceedingly difficult even if she DIDN'T lose her voice. 2. There's little guarantee that Eric would completely believe her even if she DID successfully write it down, and 3., considering Ursula would have secretly kept tabs on Ariel via Flotsam and Jetsam, and based on how she had the latter party tip over Eric and Ariel's boat just seconds before they could kiss, I'm pretty sure they would have done something similar if she tried to write in the sand how she came there. The Recess episode Jinx had Gus try to write out what happened, but then one of the Ashleys bumped into Spinelli and then loudly argued with her, and then Ashley Armbruster then caused a stampede among the Kindergartners that destroyed Gus's writing before any of his friends had a chance to read it. So, yes, actually, Ariel DID communicate with Eric. She may not have communicated to your liking, but she certainly communicated with him. And either way, she certainly communicated with him far more than her predecessors did (heck, many times the princes didn't even learn the girls names until well after the fact).

      And as far as Ariel, you're also forgetting that Ariel didn't even plan to see Ursula before then, or that Triton more than played a role in her decision. Let me point out that right before the Under the Sea number, she actually DID have a plan to see Eric that didn't even involve Ursula, or even becoming human for that matter. This is in fact the exact dialogue that occurred:


      Ariel: I gotta see him again - tonight! Scuttle knows where he lives.

      Sebastian: Ariel - please. Will you get your head out of the clouds and back in the water where it belongs?

      Ariel: I'll swim up to his castle. Then Flounder will splash around to get his attention, and then with -
      This was in fact her initial plan of getting to find Eric. Ursula wasn't even an idea for her until right after Triton blew up her grotto when Flotsam and Jetsam literally suggested it to her, and even THERE, she outright refused despite her distress, with it taking F&J flicking the remains of Eric's statue toward her while "taking their leave" to convince her to even decide to go over there (not necessarily agree to the deal, just go over). And if you still don't believe me, here's yet another quote from the film, this time dealing with the eels' encountering her:


      Flotsam: Poor child.

      Jetsam: Poor, sweet child.

      Flotsam: She has a very serious problem

      Jetsam: If only there were something we could do.

      Flotsam: But there is something.

      Ariel: Who - who are you?

      Jetsam: Don't be scared.

      Flotsam: We represent someone who can help you.

      Jetsam: Someone who could make all your dreams come true.

      Flotsam and Jetsam: Just imagine -

      Jetsam: You and your prince -

      Flotsam and Jetsam: Together, forever. . . .

      Ariel: I don't understand.

      Jetsam: Ursula has great powers

      Ariel: The sea witch? Why, that's - I couldn't possibly - no! Get out of here! Leave me alone!

      Flotsam: Suit yourself.

      Jetsam: It was only a suggestion.

      [Jetsam flicks the statue's broken face towards Ariel.]

      Ariel: [Looking at the face] Wait.

      Flotsam and Jetsam: Yeeeeeeeeeess?

      Emphasis mine. Ariel actually refused F&J when they directly suggested she go see Ursula. The only reason they succeeded was by flicking the statue at her, that and her already being an emotional wreck over what Triton did earlier (I'm pretty sure if Triton hadn't done that and F&J tried the exact same thing, they definitely would not have been even remotely as successful.). And you can watch the movie again if you wish, because those lines were definitely in the movie (I may have taken them from the transcript here, but make no mistake, I definitely remember those lines from the movie). I owe a lot to Ariel, since alongside my parents, she was one of my main motivators to even overcome my autism enough to even be able to have a chance at interacting with society. And besides, I don't like it when people make grossly inaccurate statements about her. I've seen the film, and can even replay it in my head, and I definitely know she was not anything like you described her to be (well, okay, she was impulsive during the sunken ship bit and the time where she saw Eric's ship sailing above, maybe during her time at the village, but not the time during Ursula's deal). If I'm going to complain about a character, I'm going to make sure my complaints actually line up exactly with what is shown in the film.

      So she thought about the consequences, but she still went through with it. In my eyes, that's either dumb or selfish. Take your pick.

      Belle didn't "fling" Gaston into the mudpool. Gaston was leaning on the door, and she opened it, causing him to fall. And besides, hitting him with a glass bottle or a piece of plywood could kill him. I get that she didn't like him, but doing stuff that could kill people is a bit extreme. And how exactly would you knock someone out without anyone noticing? If she knocked out Gaston and been caught, the mob would've probably targeted her and her father, and things would've just ended up worse.

      Eric and Ariel did kinda communicate, but not in a way that is easy to make people fall in love. It's almost impossible for two people to fall in love without one of them saying anything. But hey, it's a Disney film, so I'll let it slide.

      Just because Ariel didn't initially plan to see Ursula, doesn't justify her eventually making a deal with her. Similarly with her initially refusing to go along with Flotsam and Jetsam. And I agree that Triton certainly didn't help by destroying her grotto, but I don't it's fair that you give Ariel that excuse but don't show the same courtesy to Belle.

      If Ariel means a lot to you personally, then good for you. I'm not trying to ruin anything for you. The thread asked why The Little Mermaid gets hate, and I gave a couple of reasons why. But the problem here is that you seem to be unable to accept my opinion on Ariel, labelling it as "grossly inaccurate". In my opinion, Ariel is not the perfect character. I didn't like her, or Eric for that matter. If you disagree, then fine, I don't really care, but you should at least show a little more respect for my opinion, instead of just completely dismissing it as "grossly inaccurate". Every Disney film and character has flaws, whether by design or unintentionally. I love Frozen, and it's the film that got me into Disney, but I acknowledge that people can have valid complaints about it (the parents, trolls, pacing etc.). Also, you say that you don't like people criticising Ariel unfairly, but don't you think that others will view your criticisms of Belle and Merida as unfair too? I'm sure those two have had a great influence on others too. 

      Anyway, I'm not here to argue with people. I can see that Ariel has had a positive impact on your life, and I'm happy that Disney films and characters can do that. I think it's best that we just agree to disagree and move on. We cool?

        Loading editor
    • DisneyCWS wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyCWS wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:
       
      I'll agree with you on impulsive and how that's one of her flaws (of course, that being said, I wouldn't say her going to Ursula was her being impulsive, mostly because those who are impulsive don't generally hesitate to do something, which Ariel clearly did regarding even going to see Ursula, let alone entering the deal. Think how Jafar didn't hesitate at all about wishing to become a genie). However, I've seen a lot of heroes who WERE impulsive. Like Ash Ketchum, for example. Besides, I think LionGuard explained it a bit better than I can.

      So far as Belle, my main problem is that she went in, got the mirror and then exposed the Beast, thus causing the villagers, including Gaston, to inevitably decide to kill him, and most likely also risking the servants being killed because of her sheer stupidity. Yes, I get it, she was concerned about her dad being locked up, but she still shouldn't have done that because she most certainly would have been smart enough to know this, yet she didn't seem to even consider it. Even Ariel when she impulsively explored a sunken ship over going to that musical debut of hers at least had enough sense to realize that sharks were present in the area based on her suggestion to Flounder when he tried to fake sickness to get out of it. Had it been me in her situation, I wouldn't have even BOTHERED with the mirror precisely BECAUSE I'd realize full well just how that would carry the grave risk of harming my friends at the castle. What I'd do instead is just knock Gaston out with some plywood, knock out another villager while stealing his torch, then toss it at the paddywagon and set it on fire before Maurice could enter, all while making sure I wasn't seen at all, then while the villagers are distracted with finding water to put it out, I'd take the opportunity to get Maurice and Phillipe and skip town, also making sure I take Chip and the magic mirror in order to avoid leaving any trace of where we're headed, and I'd also make sure I'm not followed.

      And quite frankly, Ariel and Eric DID communicate as well anyways when meeting and during two of the three days. Offered to show her around the village, apologizing for Max's abrupt arrival, asking if she was familiar, mentioning she went through a whole ordeal, asking for her name, you name it.

      And maybe that kind of realism is kinda dull, but on the other hand, I'm not exactly fond of stuff like that Metal Gear video, where they have an ally all of a sudden out of the blue turning on you, and then it turning out it was a fake betrayal, so I'd take dullness ultimately.

      And for the last bit, correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't Gaston say/sing "When I met her, saw her, I said 'she's gorgeous' and I fell" in the opening song? That suggests that at the very least he did fall in love with her in a very loose and shallow sense of the term.

      I'm not saying that being impulsive instantly makes you a bad character, but Ariel decided to make a deal with Ursula without thinking about the consequences. 

      The thing with Belle is that there was a sense of urgency. Her father was about to be locked up. She didn't have the time to think about it. And your suggestion about knocking out Gaston, how would she do that? Have you forgotten how muscular and athletic Gaston was? And then assaulting a random villager and setting the paddywagon on fire wouldn't have worked without anyone seeing. Not to mention, doing that would've probably caused just as much trouble as the mirror thing did.

      Ariel and Eric did kinda communicate, but not really. Eric said things to her, she would nod or make a facial expression. That barely counts as communication.

      And, for the last time, I'm not saying that Eric should've just pulled a sudden 180 and stabbed Ariel in the back. I just think that Eric had very little personality beyond being a nice guy. No charisma, no humour, none of that. And, as a result, I thought he was dull.

      Gaston did say that in the song, but he very clearly didn't fall for Belle. He only wanted her as a trophy.


      @LionGuardEscort198 

      I haven't seen Lion Guard, so I don't really know what you're referring to. 

      Ariel did have a choice. She could've refused to go along with a ridiculous contract. At the very least, she could've taken a few minutes to think about her plan before actually signing the contract. That's the difference between Ariel signing the contract and Belle exposing Beast to the mob. Belle had to act soon or her father would be locked up. Ariel easily had enough time to think about what she was signing. 

      I'm sure there are other ways of showing human kindness than trading away your voice for a pair of legs, with a 3 day time slot to kiss someone who was effectively a stranger, and if you fail you become one of Ursula's prisoners, thus endangering and upsetting yourself and others. 

      Regarding Ariel not thinking about the consequences, let me remind you that when Ursula laid down the terms of the deal, Ariel explicitly said "If I were to do that, I wouldn't see my father or sisters again.", and this was referring to whichever way the deal went, whether she won or lost, and she said it in a very hesitant tone. She most CERTAINLY thought about the consequences (well, okay, she probably didn't know about the bit with Triton, but then again, there definitely wasn't any way she could have known). Heck, when Ursula mentioned the payment regarding her voice, Ariel actually attempted to question why her voice was even necessary and even tried to point out that she probably wouldn't even be able to communicate with Eric.

      So far as Gaston and the whole blackmail thing, him being muscular didn't stop Belle from flinging him into a mudpool much earlier. And besides, she also managed to lift Beast and Maurice up (twice in the former case, one of which is even on-screen), and Beast at least definitely would have been a LOT more muscular than Gaston ever could be, and both Beast and Maurice at least would have been at the very least heavier than Gaston if not a LOT larger. And besides, who said she needed to use her fists or legs to knock Gaston out? All that needed is something like plywood and a well timed strike to the back of the head with plywood, or even a glass bottle. You don't need to be muscular to pull that off. I'm pretty sure I could pull it off, and I'm very lean. And for the record, all of that would have taken me a few seconds to process, and probably only a few additional seconds. Heck, Batgirl from Arkham Knight DLC A Matter of Family was able to pull that off. If she could do it, I'm pretty sure Belle could (especially when Belle had enough high senses to actually splash away a downpour without even looking in the opening song, and enough upper body strength to actually lift the Beast up twice as well as Maurice, both of whom, again, would have been at least heavier than Gaston, if not much larger). And yeah, if she did it very loudly, she'd obviously get into trouble, but if she relied on stealth, she most certainly can accomplish it, never underestimate that. There have been plenty of times I actually snuck up on people and was silent before making myself known, and if I could do it, Belle most certainly could as well. So no, Belle was STILL stupid with that bit, urgency or not (I under similar circumstances would STILL not use the mirror, and would instead rely on stealth and knock people out without even drawing attention to myself, then set it on fire.). In fact, a lot of Special Forces groups need quick thinking and stealth to get the job done precisely because of their line of work.

      As far as Eric and Ariel, it's still communicating, though, and quite frankly, nodding and shaking heads, even pantomime which Ariel attempted to do, would still have been communicating. Probably the only attempt at communication she hasn't attempted to do was writing, and let's face it, there would have been plenty of problems with that mode anyways: 1. She'd need to match up Eric's language with whatever books she read (which plausibly would have to deal with at least as many languages as are present in whatever part of the European continent Atlantica is near), something that's exceedingly difficult even if she DIDN'T lose her voice. 2. There's little guarantee that Eric would completely believe her even if she DID successfully write it down, and 3., considering Ursula would have secretly kept tabs on Ariel via Flotsam and Jetsam, and based on how she had the latter party tip over Eric and Ariel's boat just seconds before they could kiss, I'm pretty sure they would have done something similar if she tried to write in the sand how she came there. The Recess episode Jinx had Gus try to write out what happened, but then one of the Ashleys bumped into Spinelli and then loudly argued with her, and then Ashley Armbruster then caused a stampede among the Kindergartners that destroyed Gus's writing before any of his friends had a chance to read it. So, yes, actually, Ariel DID communicate with Eric. She may not have communicated to your liking, but she certainly communicated with him. And either way, she certainly communicated with him far more than her predecessors did (heck, many times the princes didn't even learn the girls names until well after the fact).

      And as far as Ariel, you're also forgetting that Ariel didn't even plan to see Ursula before then, or that Triton more than played a role in her decision. Let me point out that right before the Under the Sea number, she actually DID have a plan to see Eric that didn't even involve Ursula, or even becoming human for that matter. This is in fact the exact dialogue that occurred:


      Ariel: I gotta see him again - tonight! Scuttle knows where he lives.

      Sebastian: Ariel - please. Will you get your head out of the clouds and back in the water where it belongs?

      Ariel: I'll swim up to his castle. Then Flounder will splash around to get his attention, and then with -
      This was in fact her initial plan of getting to find Eric. Ursula wasn't even an idea for her until right after Triton blew up her grotto when Flotsam and Jetsam literally suggested it to her, and even THERE, she outright refused despite her distress, with it taking F&J flicking the remains of Eric's statue toward her while "taking their leave" to convince her to even decide to go over there (not necessarily agree to the deal, just go over). And if you still don't believe me, here's yet another quote from the film, this time dealing with the eels' encountering her:


      Flotsam: Poor child.

      Jetsam: Poor, sweet child.

      Flotsam: She has a very serious problem

      Jetsam: If only there were something we could do.

      Flotsam: But there is something.

      Ariel: Who - who are you?

      Jetsam: Don't be scared.

      Flotsam: We represent someone who can help you.

      Jetsam: Someone who could make all your dreams come true.

      Flotsam and Jetsam: Just imagine -

      Jetsam: You and your prince -

      Flotsam and Jetsam: Together, forever. . . .

      Ariel: I don't understand.

      Jetsam: Ursula has great powers

      Ariel: The sea witch? Why, that's - I couldn't possibly - no! Get out of here! Leave me alone!

      Flotsam: Suit yourself.

      Jetsam: It was only a suggestion.

      [Jetsam flicks the statue's broken face towards Ariel.]

      Ariel: [Looking at the face] Wait.

      Flotsam and Jetsam: Yeeeeeeeeeess?

      Emphasis mine. Ariel actually refused F&J when they directly suggested she go see Ursula. The only reason they succeeded was by flicking the statue at her, that and her already being an emotional wreck over what Triton did earlier (I'm pretty sure if Triton hadn't done that and F&J tried the exact same thing, they definitely would not have been even remotely as successful.). And you can watch the movie again if you wish, because those lines were definitely in the movie (I may have taken them from the transcript here, but make no mistake, I definitely remember those lines from the movie). I owe a lot to Ariel, since alongside my parents, she was one of my main motivators to even overcome my autism enough to even be able to have a chance at interacting with society. And besides, I don't like it when people make grossly inaccurate statements about her. I've seen the film, and can even replay it in my head, and I definitely know she was not anything like you described her to be (well, okay, she was impulsive during the sunken ship bit and the time where she saw Eric's ship sailing above, maybe during her time at the village, but not the time during Ursula's deal). If I'm going to complain about a character, I'm going to make sure my complaints actually line up exactly with what is shown in the film.

      So she thought about the consequences, but she still went through with it. In my eyes, that's either dumb or selfish. Take your pick.

      Belle didn't "fling" Gaston into the mudpool. Gaston was leaning on the door, and she opened it, causing him to fall. And besides, hitting him with a glass bottle or a piece of plywood could kill him. I get that she didn't like him, but doing stuff that could kill people is a bit extreme. And how exactly would you knock someone out without anyone noticing? If she knocked out Gaston and been caught, the mob would've probably targeted her and her father, and things would've just ended up worse.

      Eric and Ariel did kinda communicate, but not in a way that is easy to make people fall in love. It's almost impossible for two people to fall in love without one of them saying anything. But hey, it's a Disney film, so I'll let it slide.

      Just because Ariel didn't initially plan to see Ursula, doesn't justify her eventually making a deal with her. Similarly with her initially refusing to go along with Flotsam and Jetsam. And I agree that Triton certainly didn't help by destroying her grotto, but I don't it's fair that you give Ariel that excuse but don't show the same courtesy to Belle.

      If Ariel means a lot to you personally, then good for you. I'm not trying to ruin anything for you. The thread asked why The Little Mermaid gets hate, and I gave a couple of reasons why. But the problem here is that you seem to be unable to accept my opinion on Ariel, labelling them as "grossly inaccurate". In my opinion, Ariel is not the perfect character. I didn't like her, or Eric for that matter. If you disagree, then fine, I don't really care, but you should at least show a little more respect for my opinion, instead of just completely dismissing it as "grossly inaccurate". Every Disney film and character has flaws, whether by design or unintentionally. I love Frozen, and it's the film that got me into Disney, but I acknowledge that people can have valid complaints about it (the parents, trolls, pacing etc.). Also, you say that you don't like people criticising Ariel unfairly, but don't you think that others will view your criticisms of Belle and Merida as unfair too? I'm sure those two have had a great influence on others too. 

      Anyway, I'm not here to argue with people. I can see that Ariel has had a positive impact on your life, and I'm happy that Disney films and characters can do that. I think it's best that we just agree to disagree and move on. We cool?

      Honestly, what was truly dumb was Belle resorting to the mirror in the first place, especially when she KNEW or at least can easily deduce that Gaston, due to just how far he went to try and force her hand in marriage, would most certainly try to kill any potential rivals for his hand in her marriage (this was the guy who tried to arrange for her dad's arrest, knowing far too well he was actually not dangerous, as blackmail to force her hand in marriage. Do you really think Gaston, after going to that extreme, would NOT rabblerouse the entire village to try and kill the Beast, and the servants once they discover them, when he gets even the slightest hint that Belle might like the Beast more than him? Had it been me in her position, I would have come to that conclusion about Gaston in less than a second.). Strategically, it makes no sense whatsoever and needlessly endangered far more lives than what was necessary, far more than with Ariel and her decision to go for Eric. I don't give a darn about urgency, especially when, if I were in her position, I would NOT have resorted to that strategy at all precisely BECAUSE I'd realize I'd most likely be killing my friends in the process, and instead have done that Special Forces-type job with the paddywagon. Heck, what was also dumb was Belle going into the West Wing, knowingly, despite being forbidden from doing so by not only the Beast himself, but even his servants, and then mindlessly escaping into a blizzard, which not only has the likely immediate effect of being killed by wolves, if not the elements, but also the fact that Beast would most likely capture and imprison her father again due to her violating her end of the bargain. And then she proceeded to blame Beast for everything after saving him when virtually everything there was in fact HER fault (the only thing Beast actually CAN be blamed for was his temper. Everything else was Belle's fault, especially breaking into the West Wing despite specifically being told not to by the servants AND Beast, and while I could understand her ignoring Beast since she hated him that time, her ignoring the servants, who she'd have no reason to ignore since they treated her nicely, is definitely contemptible.), and then won that blame game. And let me remind you that Belle had enough upper body strength to actually LIFT Beast and Maurice up, the former twice, one of which was on-screen, and both of whom make Gaston look like a featherweight in terms of weight at the very least (and as far as Beast, most certainly would tower over Gaston). For all of Ariel's faults, she at least owned up to the fact that the whole situation with Ursula WAS indeed her fault and made no attempt to blame her father for her actions, even when Triton bore more of the blame for the events that transpired, something not even Belle was able to do with Beast. And BTW, stupidity or dumbness entails actually ignoring completely the consequences. Ariel took full consideration of the consequences, ergo, not dumb. And she wasn't selfish, either. Again, you want selfish, try Kuzco, or even Kefka in that video I posted earlier. THAT'S selfish, since the definition for that is you don't care about anyone except for yourself, and are knowing and willing to screw over anyone so long as you get what you want.

      And actually, you only need enough force in the glass bottle or plywood to knock someone out, not any more than that. Look at various pistol whips that are used, or even how that drunk blacksmith managed to knock out Jack Sparrow in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. If even a drunk who by definition would have his senses severely impaired under most cases can merely knock a guy out by breaking a beer bottle against his neck, Belle most certainly can as well, either with a glass bottle or plywood. And you can do it without even drawing attention to yourself. For example, the debut for Nick Torres in NCIS had him stabbing an attempted assassin sent to do him in via the assassin's own knife in such a low-key manner that he didn't even draw attention to himself, especially when he was in a crowded bar at the time. All Belle needed to do was something similar with Gaston, do it in such a low key manner that she wouldn't even be noticed by the other villagers.

      And for the record, my criticisms of Belle and Merida WERE fair. Belle had knowingly gone into the West Wing, largely to spite The Beast (it wasn't because she was lost or anything like that, she knew EXACTLY where she was going, and her tone of "Oh, so that's the west wing, huh?" indicates she definitely didn't have particularly good intentions going in there), then afterwards explicitly violated her end of the bargain by fleeing the Castle during a blizzard, thus not only endangering herself to the elements and the wolves due to her own recklessness, but also her own dad, whom the entire REASON she even agreed to that stipulation of staying at the castle permanently was to allow her dad to be freed from imprisonment, since Beast could have just as easily decided, since she broke her end of the deal, he might as well retrieve Maurice. And don't get me started on how she made things even WORSE with her decision to show people the mirror. Even if she did get caught and get in serious trouble with the villagers, at least the rest of the servants and Beast wouldn't have nearly been KILLED as a result. That's what you to fail to take into consideration, the fact that she got Beast and his servants nearly killed by the villagers, especially when unlike Ariel, Belle most certainly would have had an idea of what the villagers, Gaston especially, would have been like. And quite frankly, as much as Ariel wanted to become human, at least she didn't insult her fellow species from some inflated sense of superiority to them, unlike Belle, who among her first lyrics of the song had her outright insulting her fellow villagers and viewing herself as high and mighty and hating the village for its provinciality, all because she could read. I used to really hold Belle in high regard, but not anymore, not after Spring 2011 where I had to deal with a very much awful feminist professor, and especially after I learned from an interview by Linda Woolverton that Belle was meant to push the radical feminism of the 1970s.

      And as far as Merida, this was a woman who rejected marriage simply because she feared it would interfere with her archery and sense of adventure. And then when she got into an argument with her mom, she went to see the witch specifically to screw over her mom. Ariel at least had no way of knowing she'd be harming her dad with her going to Ursula since there was definitely no way she could have known. Merida went to that witch with the specific intent of drugging her and force her to see things her way, which actually DOES qualify as selfish and most certainly counts as intending explicit harm on her parents, which then led directly to her mom being turned into a bear, heck, most of her family as well. And overall, Merida was a sociopathic brat, who probably would backstab her parents if it meant ensuring she got her adventure and archery. Hated men as well.

      So no, my criticisms for Belle and Merida are DEFINITELY more than fair, far more than the criticisms towards Ariel right now. Heck, if anything, I'm being nice to Belle and Merida, as I could list a lot WORSE stuff regarding Belle at least, probably also Merida. At least I'm not claiming Belle's an outright man-hater who actually rivals Gaston in hating the opposite sex, and I could easily do that precisely because one of the comics actually did show Belle being that. And I could also easily cite stuff about them that isn't even confirmed to be true, like Belle betraying Beast and joining the French Revolutionaries and even pulling a Nibelheim on her own village.

      And for the record, they certainly communicated far more than Cinderella, Aurora, or Snow White did with their princes. Of them, probably the only one who MIGHT have learned her name was the prince in Snow White regarding the titular character. None of the other princes even got the opportunity to learn their names (either Aurora or Briar Rose in the case of Aurora). Phillip did come close to learning Aurora's pseudonym at the very least, but she ended up running back to the cottage before she could answer. Heck, if anything, they had even LESS reason to get together than Ariel and Eric did, barely even talking. Statistically, Ariel and Eric were far more likely to fall for each other via communication than her predecessors did.

      And the reason why I don't show that courtesy with Belle is because with Belle, she actually WAS in Triton's role there, while Beast if anything was in Ariel's situation. Belle entered without permission Beast's West Wing, deliberately I should add. Heck, she's even worse than Triton there: Unlike Triton, who at least owned up to the fact that he was at fault for Ariel's disappearance, Belle blamed Beast for pretty much everything even when the only thing in that event where Beast can even be blamed for was losing control of his temper, beyond that, literally everything else was indeed Belle's fault (if anything, I actually can understand very well why Beast was very angry, even if I don't like how he lost control like that). And as far as Belle and the mirror, again, unlike with Ariel, who at least had no idea regarding Ursula still being evil (especially when Ursula actually DID feign reform during Poor Unfortunate Souls), Belle already KNEW Gaston was bad, and she certainly got the message that he was evil when he tried to propose to her in exchange for convincing the villagers to release Maurice, thus exposing himself has having instigated the whole thing, and she ALSO should have known, being the "smart girl" she is, that if Gaston would have done that, he most certainly would rabblerouse to kill the Beast specifically to make sure Belle is his alone (don't forget that this was the same girl who deduced the castle was enchanted just from casual observation and not from being told about the curse.). In other words, Ariel at least had no knowledge about Ursula still being evil and would have no reason to go for it, while Belle DID know full well about what Gaston was truly like by that point, and also would have known full well what the villagers were like. And either way, I'd throw that argument right back at you. If I were you and I hated Ariel for those reasons, I'd hate literally EVERYONE who displayed similar behavior in ANY way.

      Either way, you can feel free to hate Ariel for recklessness, since after all, that was indeed a flaw of hers. But don't try to claim she's dumb or selfish or anything like that, because she most certainly wasn't. If anything, she's demonstrated far more of an aptitude for actual intelligence than Belle. At least Ariel's willing to learn from her mistakes and acknowledge she might not know much about humanity. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:
      Honestly, what was truly dumb was Belle resorting to the mirror in the first place, especially when she KNEW or at least can easily deduce that Gaston, due to just how far he went to try and force her hand in marriage, would most certainly try to kill any potential rivals for his hand in her marriage (this was the guy who tried to arrange for her dad's arrest, knowing far too well he was actually not dangerous, as blackmail to force her hand in marriage. Do you really think Gaston, after going to that extreme, would NOT rabblerouse the entire village to try and kill the Beast, and the servants once they discover them, when he gets even the slightest hint that Belle might like the Beast more than him? Had it been me in her position, I would have come to that conclusion about Gaston in less than a second.). Strategically, it makes no sense whatsoever and needlessly endangered far more lives than what was necessary, far more than with Ariel and her decision to go for Eric. I don't give a darn about urgency, especially when, if I were in her position, I would NOT have resorted to that strategy at all precisely BECAUSE I'd realize I'd most likely be killing my friends in the process, and instead have done that Special Forces-type job with the paddywagon. Heck, what was also dumb was Belle going into the West Wing, knowingly, despite being forbidden from doing so by not only the Beast himself, but even his servants, and then mindlessly escaping into a blizzard, which not only has the likely immediate effect of being killed by wolves, if not the elements, but also the fact that Beast would most likely capture and imprison her father again due to her violating her end of the bargain. And then she proceeded to blame Beast for everything after saving him when virtually everything there was in fact HER fault (the only thing Beast actually CAN be blamed for was his temper. Everything else was Belle's fault, especially breaking into the West Wing despite specifically being told not to by the servants AND Beast, and while I could understand her ignoring Beast since she hated him that time, her ignoring the servants, who she'd have no reason to ignore since they treated her nicely, is definitely contemptible.), and then won that blame game. And let me remind you that Belle had enough upper body strength to actually LIFT Beast and Maurice up, the former twice, one of which was on-screen, and both of whom make Gaston look like a featherweight in terms of weight at the very least (and as far as Beast, most certainly would tower over Gaston). For all of Ariel's faults, she at least owned up to the fact that the whole situation with Ursula WAS indeed her fault and made no attempt to blame her father for her actions, even when Triton bore more of the blame for the events that transpired, something not even Belle was able to do with Beast. And BTW, stupidity or dumbness entails actually ignoring completely the consequences. Ariel took full consideration of the consequences, ergo, not dumb. And she wasn't selfish, either. Again, you want selfish, try Kuzco, or even Kefka in that video I posted earlier. THAT'S selfish, since the definition for that is you don't care about anyone except for yourself, and are knowing and willing to screw over anyone so long as you get what you want.

      And actually, you only need enough force in the glass bottle or plywood to knock someone out, not any more than that. Look at various pistol whips that are used, or even how that drunk blacksmith managed to knock out Jack Sparrow in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. If even a drunk who by definition would have his senses severely impaired under most cases can merely knock a guy out by breaking a beer bottle against his neck, Belle most certainly can as well, either with a glass bottle or plywood. And you can do it without even drawing attention to yourself. For example, the debut for Nick Torres in NCIS had him stabbing an attempted assassin sent to do him in via the assassin's own knife in such a low-key manner that he didn't even draw attention to himself, especially when he was in a crowded bar at the time. All Belle needed to do was something similar with Gaston, do it in such a low key manner that she wouldn't even be noticed by the other villagers.

      And for the record, my criticisms of Belle and Merida WERE fair. Belle had knowingly gone into the West Wing, largely to spite The Beast (it wasn't because she was lost or anything like that, she knew EXACTLY where she was going, and her tone of "Oh, so that's the west wing, huh?" indicates she definitely didn't have particularly good intentions going in there), then afterwards explicitly violated her end of the bargain by fleeing the Castle during a blizzard, thus not only endangering herself to the elements and the wolves due to her own recklessness, but also her own dad, whom the entire REASON she even agreed to that stipulation of staying at the castle permanently was to allow her dad to be freed from imprisonment, since Beast could have just as easily decided, since she broke her end of the deal, he might as well retrieve Maurice. And don't get me started on how she made things even WORSE with her decision to show people the mirror. Even if she did get caught and get in serious trouble with the villagers, at least the rest of the servants and Beast wouldn't have nearly been KILLED as a result. That's what you to fail to take into consideration, the fact that she got Beast and his servants nearly killed by the villagers, especially when unlike Ariel, Belle most certainly would have had an idea of what the villagers, Gaston especially, would have been like. And quite frankly, as much as Ariel wanted to become human, at least she didn't insult her fellow species from some inflated sense of superiority to them, unlike Belle, who among her first lyrics of the song had her outright insulting her fellow villagers and viewing herself as high and mighty and hating the village for its provinciality, all because she could read. I used to really hold Belle in high regard, but not anymore, not after Spring 2011 where I had to deal with a very much awful feminist professor, and especially after I learned from an interview by Linda Woolverton that Belle was meant to push the radical feminism of the 1970s.

      And as far as Merida, this was a woman who rejected marriage simply because she feared it would interfere with her archery and sense of adventure. And then when she got into an argument with her mom, she went to see the witch specifically to screw over her mom. Ariel at least had no way of knowing she'd be harming her dad with her going to Ursula since there was definitely no way she could have known. Merida went to that witch with the specific intent of drugging her and force her to see things her way, which actually DOES qualify as selfish and most certainly counts as intending explicit harm on her parents, which then led directly to her mom being turned into a bear, heck, most of her family as well. And overall, Merida was a sociopathic brat, who probably would backstab her parents if it meant ensuring she got her adventure and archery. Hated men as well.

      So no, my criticisms for Belle and Merida are DEFINITELY more than fair, far more than the criticisms towards Ariel right now. Heck, if anything, I'm being nice to Belle and Merida, as I could list a lot WORSE stuff regarding Belle at least, probably also Merida. At least I'm not claiming Belle's an outright man-hater who actually rivals Gaston in hating the opposite sex, and I could easily do that precisely because one of the comics actually did show Belle being that. And I could also easily cite stuff about them that isn't even confirmed to be true, like Belle betraying Beast and joining the French Revolutionaries and even pulling a Nibelheim on her own village.

      And for the record, they certainly communicated far more than Cinderella, Aurora, or Snow White did with their princes. Of them, probably the only one who MIGHT have learned her name was the prince in Snow White regarding the titular character. None of the other princes even got the opportunity to learn their names (either Aurora or Briar Rose in the case of Aurora). Phillip did come close to learning Aurora's pseudonym at the very least, but she ended up running back to the cottage before she could answer. Heck, if anything, they had even LESS reason to get together than Ariel and Eric did, barely even talking. Statistically, Ariel and Eric were far more likely to fall for each other via communication than her predecessors did.

      And the reason why I don't show that courtesy with Belle is because with Belle, she actually WAS in Triton's role there, while Beast if anything was in Ariel's situation. Belle entered without permission Beast's West Wing, deliberately I should add. Heck, she's even worse than Triton there: Unlike Triton, who at least owned up to the fact that he was at fault for Ariel's disappearance, Belle blamed Beast for pretty much everything even when the only thing in that event where Beast can even be blamed for was losing control of his temper, beyond that, literally everything else was indeed Belle's fault (if anything, I actually can understand very well why Beast was very angry, even if I don't like how he lost control like that). And as far as Belle and the mirror, again, unlike with Ariel, who at least had no idea regarding Ursula still being evil (especially when Ursula actually DID feign reform during Poor Unfortunate Souls), Belle already KNEW Gaston was bad, and she certainly got the message that he was evil when he tried to propose to her in exchange for convincing the villagers to release Maurice, thus exposing himself has having instigated the whole thing, and she ALSO should have known, being the "smart girl" she is, that if Gaston would have done that, he most certainly would rabblerouse to kill the Beast specifically to make sure Belle is his alone (don't forget that this was the same girl who deduced the castle was enchanted just from casual observation and not from being told about the curse.). In other words, Ariel at least had no knowledge about Ursula still being evil and would have no reason to go for it, while Belle DID know full well about what Gaston was truly like by that point, and also would have known full well what the villagers were like. And either way, I'd throw that argument right back at you. If I were you and I hated Ariel for those reasons, I'd hate literally EVERYONE who displayed similar behavior in ANY way.

      Either way, you can feel free to hate Ariel for recklessness, since after all, that was indeed a flaw of hers. But don't try to claim she's dumb or selfish or anything like that, because she most certainly wasn't. If anything, she's demonstrated far more of an aptitude for actual intelligence than Belle. At least Ariel's willing to learn from her mistakes and acknowledge she might not know much about humanity. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

      For God's sake man. I'm trying to be reasonable, but you just dismiss my opinion as worthless. 

      I actually agree with your opinion on Merida and I really didn't like Brave, but that's besides the point. I also agree that Belle shoudn't have gone into the West Wing, but I still stand by my point about the mirror thing. Also, Belle says stuff like "this is all my fault", so trying to claim that she blamed Beast for everything is just not true. 

      I need to make one thing clear. I do NOT hate Ariel. She's such an inoffensive character that it's not worth hating her. I don't like her, but she does have some redeeming qualities (adventurous, followed her dreams, great singing voice). 

      Would you please stop trying to completely invalidate my opinion? Just because you think she wasn't dumb, doesn't make it a fact. It's all opinions. You clearly like Ariel more than Belle, and I'm sure there's many people that would agree with you. I'd disagree, and so would many others. Neither of us are right. That's the great thing about opinions: there's no right answer.

      Now, I'll say for the last time, I'm not trying to offend anyone here. If you love Ariel and don't like Belle, then fine. I'm not trying to turn you against Ariel, or Eric, or anything about The Little Mermaid. I'm clearly not gonna convince you that Ariel was dumb or selfish, just like how you're not gonna convince me that Belle was as bad as you say she is. So can you show my opinions a little bit of respect, and then we can agree to disagree, and then move on?

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    • DisneyCWS wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:
      Honestly, what was truly dumb was Belle resorting to the mirror in the first place, especially when she KNEW or at least can easily deduce that Gaston, due to just how far he went to try and force her hand in marriage, would most certainly try to kill any potential rivals for his hand in her marriage (this was the guy who tried to arrange for her dad's arrest, knowing far too well he was actually not dangerous, as blackmail to force her hand in marriage. Do you really think Gaston, after going to that extreme, would NOT rabblerouse the entire village to try and kill the Beast, and the servants once they discover them, when he gets even the slightest hint that Belle might like the Beast more than him? Had it been me in her position, I would have come to that conclusion about Gaston in less than a second.). Strategically, it makes no sense whatsoever and needlessly endangered far more lives than what was necessary, far more than with Ariel and her decision to go for Eric. I don't give a darn about urgency, especially when, if I were in her position, I would NOT have resorted to that strategy at all precisely BECAUSE I'd realize I'd most likely be killing my friends in the process, and instead have done that Special Forces-type job with the paddywagon. Heck, what was also dumb was Belle going into the West Wing, knowingly, despite being forbidden from doing so by not only the Beast himself, but even his servants, and then mindlessly escaping into a blizzard, which not only has the likely immediate effect of being killed by wolves, if not the elements, but also the fact that Beast would most likely capture and imprison her father again due to her violating her end of the bargain. And then she proceeded to blame Beast for everything after saving him when virtually everything there was in fact HER fault (the only thing Beast actually CAN be blamed for was his temper. Everything else was Belle's fault, especially breaking into the West Wing despite specifically being told not to by the servants AND Beast, and while I could understand her ignoring Beast since she hated him that time, her ignoring the servants, who she'd have no reason to ignore since they treated her nicely, is definitely contemptible.), and then won that blame game. And let me remind you that Belle had enough upper body strength to actually LIFT Beast and Maurice up, the former twice, one of which was on-screen, and both of whom make Gaston look like a featherweight in terms of weight at the very least (and as far as Beast, most certainly would tower over Gaston). For all of Ariel's faults, she at least owned up to the fact that the whole situation with Ursula WAS indeed her fault and made no attempt to blame her father for her actions, even when Triton bore more of the blame for the events that transpired, something not even Belle was able to do with Beast. And BTW, stupidity or dumbness entails actually ignoring completely the consequences. Ariel took full consideration of the consequences, ergo, not dumb. And she wasn't selfish, either. Again, you want selfish, try Kuzco, or even Kefka in that video I posted earlier. THAT'S selfish, since the definition for that is you don't care about anyone except for yourself, and are knowing and willing to screw over anyone so long as you get what you want.

      And actually, you only need enough force in the glass bottle or plywood to knock someone out, not any more than that. Look at various pistol whips that are used, or even how that drunk blacksmith managed to knock out Jack Sparrow in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. If even a drunk who by definition would have his senses severely impaired under most cases can merely knock a guy out by breaking a beer bottle against his neck, Belle most certainly can as well, either with a glass bottle or plywood. And you can do it without even drawing attention to yourself. For example, the debut for Nick Torres in NCIS had him stabbing an attempted assassin sent to do him in via the assassin's own knife in such a low-key manner that he didn't even draw attention to himself, especially when he was in a crowded bar at the time. All Belle needed to do was something similar with Gaston, do it in such a low key manner that she wouldn't even be noticed by the other villagers.

      And for the record, my criticisms of Belle and Merida WERE fair. Belle had knowingly gone into the West Wing, largely to spite The Beast (it wasn't because she was lost or anything like that, she knew EXACTLY where she was going, and her tone of "Oh, so that's the west wing, huh?" indicates she definitely didn't have particularly good intentions going in there), then afterwards explicitly violated her end of the bargain by fleeing the Castle during a blizzard, thus not only endangering herself to the elements and the wolves due to her own recklessness, but also her own dad, whom the entire REASON she even agreed to that stipulation of staying at the castle permanently was to allow her dad to be freed from imprisonment, since Beast could have just as easily decided, since she broke her end of the deal, he might as well retrieve Maurice. And don't get me started on how she made things even WORSE with her decision to show people the mirror. Even if she did get caught and get in serious trouble with the villagers, at least the rest of the servants and Beast wouldn't have nearly been KILLED as a result. That's what you to fail to take into consideration, the fact that she got Beast and his servants nearly killed by the villagers, especially when unlike Ariel, Belle most certainly would have had an idea of what the villagers, Gaston especially, would have been like. And quite frankly, as much as Ariel wanted to become human, at least she didn't insult her fellow species from some inflated sense of superiority to them, unlike Belle, who among her first lyrics of the song had her outright insulting her fellow villagers and viewing herself as high and mighty and hating the village for its provinciality, all because she could read. I used to really hold Belle in high regard, but not anymore, not after Spring 2011 where I had to deal with a very much awful feminist professor, and especially after I learned from an interview by Linda Woolverton that Belle was meant to push the radical feminism of the 1970s.

      And as far as Merida, this was a woman who rejected marriage simply because she feared it would interfere with her archery and sense of adventure. And then when she got into an argument with her mom, she went to see the witch specifically to screw over her mom. Ariel at least had no way of knowing she'd be harming her dad with her going to Ursula since there was definitely no way she could have known. Merida went to that witch with the specific intent of drugging her and force her to see things her way, which actually DOES qualify as selfish and most certainly counts as intending explicit harm on her parents, which then led directly to her mom being turned into a bear, heck, most of her family as well. And overall, Merida was a sociopathic brat, who probably would backstab her parents if it meant ensuring she got her adventure and archery. Hated men as well.

      So no, my criticisms for Belle and Merida are DEFINITELY more than fair, far more than the criticisms towards Ariel right now. Heck, if anything, I'm being nice to Belle and Merida, as I could list a lot WORSE stuff regarding Belle at least, probably also Merida. At least I'm not claiming Belle's an outright man-hater who actually rivals Gaston in hating the opposite sex, and I could easily do that precisely because one of the comics actually did show Belle being that. And I could also easily cite stuff about them that isn't even confirmed to be true, like Belle betraying Beast and joining the French Revolutionaries and even pulling a Nibelheim on her own village.

      And for the record, they certainly communicated far more than Cinderella, Aurora, or Snow White did with their princes. Of them, probably the only one who MIGHT have learned her name was the prince in Snow White regarding the titular character. None of the other princes even got the opportunity to learn their names (either Aurora or Briar Rose in the case of Aurora). Phillip did come close to learning Aurora's pseudonym at the very least, but she ended up running back to the cottage before she could answer. Heck, if anything, they had even LESS reason to get together than Ariel and Eric did, barely even talking. Statistically, Ariel and Eric were far more likely to fall for each other via communication than her predecessors did.

      And the reason why I don't show that courtesy with Belle is because with Belle, she actually WAS in Triton's role there, while Beast if anything was in Ariel's situation. Belle entered without permission Beast's West Wing, deliberately I should add. Heck, she's even worse than Triton there: Unlike Triton, who at least owned up to the fact that he was at fault for Ariel's disappearance, Belle blamed Beast for pretty much everything even when the only thing in that event where Beast can even be blamed for was losing control of his temper, beyond that, literally everything else was indeed Belle's fault (if anything, I actually can understand very well why Beast was very angry, even if I don't like how he lost control like that). And as far as Belle and the mirror, again, unlike with Ariel, who at least had no idea regarding Ursula still being evil (especially when Ursula actually DID feign reform during Poor Unfortunate Souls), Belle already KNEW Gaston was bad, and she certainly got the message that he was evil when he tried to propose to her in exchange for convincing the villagers to release Maurice, thus exposing himself has having instigated the whole thing, and she ALSO should have known, being the "smart girl" she is, that if Gaston would have done that, he most certainly would rabblerouse to kill the Beast specifically to make sure Belle is his alone (don't forget that this was the same girl who deduced the castle was enchanted just from casual observation and not from being told about the curse.). In other words, Ariel at least had no knowledge about Ursula still being evil and would have no reason to go for it, while Belle DID know full well about what Gaston was truly like by that point, and also would have known full well what the villagers were like. And either way, I'd throw that argument right back at you. If I were you and I hated Ariel for those reasons, I'd hate literally EVERYONE who displayed similar behavior in ANY way.

      Either way, you can feel free to hate Ariel for recklessness, since after all, that was indeed a flaw of hers. But don't try to claim she's dumb or selfish or anything like that, because she most certainly wasn't. If anything, she's demonstrated far more of an aptitude for actual intelligence than Belle. At least Ariel's willing to learn from her mistakes and acknowledge she might not know much about humanity. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

      For God's sake man. I'm trying to be reasonable, but you just dismiss my opinion as worthless. 

      I actually agree with your opinion on Merida and I really didn't like Brave, but that's besides the point. I also agree that Belle shoudn't have gone into the West Wing, but I still stand by my point about the mirror thing. Also, Belle says stuff like "this is all my fault", so trying to claim that she blamed Beast for everything is just not true. 

      I need to make one thing clear. I do NOT hate Ariel. She's such an inoffensive character that it's not worth hating her. I don't like her, but she does have some redeeming qualities (adventurous, followed her dreams, great singing voice). 

      Would you please stop trying to completely invalidate my opinion? Just because you think she wasn't dumb, doesn't make it a fact. It's all opinions. You clearly like Ariel more than Belle, and I'm sure there's many people that would agree with you. I'd disagree, and so would many others. Neither of us are right. That's the great thing about opinions: there's no right answer.

      Now, I'll say for the last time, I'm not trying to offend anyone here. If you love Ariel and don't like Belle, then fine. I'm not trying to turn you against Ariel, or Eric, or anything about The Little Mermaid. I'm clearly not gonna convince you that Ariel was dumb or selfish, just like how you're not gonna convince me that Belle was as bad as you say she is. So can you show my opinions a little bit of respect, and then we can agree to disagree, and then move on?

      When I said she "blamed the Beast for everything," I was specifically referring to the Wolf/West Wing incident, where she made absolutely NO effort to even mention how she was at fault at all and instead DID in fact blame Beast for everything. Now, the mirror incident, yes, she did acknowledge it was all her fault, I will give you that much, and is probably the only good thing in that whole mess. I'm standing by my point regarding the mirror, though, as there were PLENTY of ways to saving Maurice that didn't involve either marrying Gaston or exposing the Beast, and Belle, being a smart girl, could easily come up with a plan that succeeds in that goal with minimum casualties. Heck, I can name plenty of Special Forces missions where they managed to complete the mission in tight spots with far less potential casualties or risks on their own end than what Belle did.

      And fine, dislike Ariel all you want. Heck, feel free to claim she was reckless or na√Įve and use THOSE as your reasons for disliking her. I can agree with you under those specific terms. But don't claim Ariel was dumb or selfish. She has her flaws, yes, but dumb and selfish definitely weren't any of them. So long as you don't mention she's dumb or selfish or that she only fell for Eric because of her looks, or heck, even claim she only wanted to become human to have female reproductive parts, I could care less about whether you like her or not. Either way, I'm definitely glad you acknowledge that Ariel had redeemable characteristics, because I've had to deal with a LOT of people online who don't seem to even acknowledge Ariel had redeemable characteristics. And while I can respect you for your opinions, after all, I acknowledged that Ariel had a reckless streak and was na√Įve, something I wouldn't have done if I didn't respect your opinion, that DOESN'T mean I will allow falsehoods to be pushed about characters especially when they are not backed up by the films. Opinions =/= facts, which is why I'm hard on you. I'd be hard on people who claim Ariel was Jesus Christ because she's not that, precisely BECAUSE it's false. And BTW, life has constantly invalidated my opinions when facts come that refuted it, so I've LONG accepted that I don't actually have ANY right to opinions (in fact, I'd even go so far as to say opinions are ultimately the same thing as lying, just as facts = truth). I mean, I could easily claim by my opinion that Ariel's transgender and sexually confused, yet if I were to say that, I'd be laughed out of the room precisely BECAUSE it's obviously not true or factual in any way. So no, opinions aren't the be-all end-all, facts are.

      And you're right, I definitely like Ariel more than Belle. Of course, back when I was a young lad, while I still did like Ariel than Belle, I did like Belle enough to actually have a figurine of Doll as my treasured toy. Back when I was a kid, I would have considered Belle my second-most favorite DP back when I could adhere to DPs. Unfortunately, thanks in large part to several extremely crappy semesters at College where the teachers thought that simply because they were authorized to teach, they were in the right to push agendas on us that had absolutely no relevance to the subject matter at hand, pushing pure propaganda in other words, combined with learning how intellectuals such as Belle were more likely to support the massacre against us Christians since the French Revolution, stumbling upon several comics that actually DID imply that Belle was a huge misandrist comparing them to pigs implicitly and saying she had no intention of associating herself with them, and also interviews with Linda Woolverton where she said that before Belle, all DPs simply waited for their princes to come and were insipid and weak, and made clear that Belle was part of the 1970s feminist ideology, I've stopped liking Belle or especially trusting her (how bad is it? Let me put it this way, despite my not really liking the blonde triplets and if anything I like Belle more than them, I find them a LOT more trustworthy than Belle right now). In fact, I'm actually planning to write a blog that's strictly related to the 1991 film Belle dealing with why she lost my favor. If you're interested, come see it when I'm finished with it. Now, that all being said, Belle DOES have a chance at redeeming herself with a true sequel to the original film. She certainly has more chances than the Rebel Alliance does at redeeming itself after George Lucas admitted that he based them on the Vietcong and the Empire on America.

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    • KIDS, WeedleMchairybug, and DisneyCWS for sure, I'm one with insight it's the difficulty in her emotions that doesn't hide from me! emotions are created by thoughts, decsions create fate, adventure not always simple to predict. Ariel has wisdom but at the beginning she lacks prediction and awareness of the real consequences. Emotional difficulty can make the decision harder kids. And hey kids not having a choices doesn't really mean 0 choices, no it means there aren't that many good solutions that would really work! So it's true anyway Ariel had little choice of how her dream could come true.


      Quit Arguing if Belle's more fun than Ariel KIDS, I'm one who loves both, attitude or event I don't struggle sharing accurate description. Plus you're two other users I'l tell on if this princess mockery keeps repeating KIDS. Belle just has more courage than Ariel but they both have it, Belle has clues of how the Beast's curse would end, with Ursula so tricky Ariel didn't have any clear hints of her own future, she just knew what her strong wish was.


      Belle taking the mirror  was  actually quite thoughtful KIDS not dumb, not at all KIDS. Belle's was one who showed the Beast both loyalty staying with him, and love wishing to remember him, and enough courage to save the Beast! Plus Belle has good wisdom and ignores Gaston who really is conceited.


      KIDS It's not fear Merida shows when she's speaking with the witch, no it's her showing despair of her mom turning back into human, however Merida's not afraid to save and support mom! Solutions and Who you are, Merida really is brave. Arrows just interested Merida plus her family loyalty is proved by her arrow shooting practices, since she did it so her family was likely to stay secure!


      Opinions are not at all the same thing as lying KIDS! Opinions do with your soul, lies do with when you wish to actually trick someone, or how often those called meddlers lie, those who enjoy being sneaky lie frequently, violent people lie a lot. Plus even those who mock you frequently sadly lie to you too, SORRY.  Lies are to discourage you, opinions are just sharing how you imagine things, and how you feel. Rumors are unpredictable if they're true or not, facts come from what's the most evident, evident enough to sense, or clear truth. Facts are found both ways. However choose your own beliefs! 

        Loading editor
    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyCWS wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:
       
      Honestly, what was truly dumb was Belle resorting to the mirror in the first place, especially when she KNEW or at least can easily deduce that Gaston, due to just how far he went to try and force her hand in marriage, would most certainly try to kill any potential rivals for his hand in her marriage (this was the guy who tried to arrange for her dad's arrest, knowing far too well he was actually not dangerous, as blackmail to force her hand in marriage. Do you really think Gaston, after going to that extreme, would NOT rabblerouse the entire village to try and kill the Beast, and the servants once they discover them, when he gets even the slightest hint that Belle might like the Beast more than him? Had it been me in her position, I would have come to that conclusion about Gaston in less than a second.). Strategically, it makes no sense whatsoever and needlessly endangered far more lives than what was necessary, far more than with Ariel and her decision to go for Eric. I don't give a darn about urgency, especially when, if I were in her position, I would NOT have resorted to that strategy at all precisely BECAUSE I'd realize I'd most likely be killing my friends in the process, and instead have done that Special Forces-type job with the paddywagon. Heck, what was also dumb was Belle going into the West Wing, knowingly, despite being forbidden from doing so by not only the Beast himself, but even his servants, and then mindlessly escaping into a blizzard, which not only has the likely immediate effect of being killed by wolves, if not the elements, but also the fact that Beast would most likely capture and imprison her father again due to her violating her end of the bargain. And then she proceeded to blame Beast for everything after saving him when virtually everything there was in fact HER fault (the only thing Beast actually CAN be blamed for was his temper. Everything else was Belle's fault, especially breaking into the West Wing despite specifically being told not to by the servants AND Beast, and while I could understand her ignoring Beast since she hated him that time, her ignoring the servants, who she'd have no reason to ignore since they treated her nicely, is definitely contemptible.), and then won that blame game. And let me remind you that Belle had enough upper body strength to actually LIFT Beast and Maurice up, the former twice, one of which was on-screen, and both of whom make Gaston look like a featherweight in terms of weight at the very least (and as far as Beast, most certainly would tower over Gaston). For all of Ariel's faults, she at least owned up to the fact that the whole situation with Ursula WAS indeed her fault and made no attempt to blame her father for her actions, even when Triton bore more of the blame for the events that transpired, something not even Belle was able to do with Beast. And BTW, stupidity or dumbness entails actually ignoring completely the consequences. Ariel took full consideration of the consequences, ergo, not dumb. And she wasn't selfish, either. Again, you want selfish, try Kuzco, or even Kefka in that video I posted earlier. THAT'S selfish, since the definition for that is you don't care about anyone except for yourself, and are knowing and willing to screw over anyone so long as you get what you want.

      And actually, you only need enough force in the glass bottle or plywood to knock someone out, not any more than that. Look at various pistol whips that are used, or even how that drunk blacksmith managed to knock out Jack Sparrow in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. If even a drunk who by definition would have his senses severely impaired under most cases can merely knock a guy out by breaking a beer bottle against his neck, Belle most certainly can as well, either with a glass bottle or plywood. And you can do it without even drawing attention to yourself. For example, the debut for Nick Torres in NCIS had him stabbing an attempted assassin sent to do him in via the assassin's own knife in such a low-key manner that he didn't even draw attention to himself, especially when he was in a crowded bar at the time. All Belle needed to do was something similar with Gaston, do it in such a low key manner that she wouldn't even be noticed by the other villagers.

      And for the record, my criticisms of Belle and Merida WERE fair. Belle had knowingly gone into the West Wing, largely to spite The Beast (it wasn't because she was lost or anything like that, she knew EXACTLY where she was going, and her tone of "Oh, so that's the west wing, huh?" indicates she definitely didn't have particularly good intentions going in there), then afterwards explicitly violated her end of the bargain by fleeing the Castle during a blizzard, thus not only endangering herself to the elements and the wolves due to her own recklessness, but also her own dad, whom the entire REASON she even agreed to that stipulation of staying at the castle permanently was to allow her dad to be freed from imprisonment, since Beast could have just as easily decided, since she broke her end of the deal, he might as well retrieve Maurice. And don't get me started on how she made things even WORSE with her decision to show people the mirror. Even if she did get caught and get in serious trouble with the villagers, at least the rest of the servants and Beast wouldn't have nearly been KILLED as a result. That's what you to fail to take into consideration, the fact that she got Beast and his servants nearly killed by the villagers, especially when unlike Ariel, Belle most certainly would have had an idea of what the villagers, Gaston especially, would have been like. And quite frankly, as much as Ariel wanted to become human, at least she didn't insult her fellow species from some inflated sense of superiority to them, unlike Belle, who among her first lyrics of the song had her outright insulting her fellow villagers and viewing herself as high and mighty and hating the village for its provinciality, all because she could read. I used to really hold Belle in high regard, but not anymore, not after Spring 2011 where I had to deal with a very much awful feminist professor, and especially after I learned from an interview by Linda Woolverton that Belle was meant to push the radical feminism of the 1970s.

      And as far as Merida, this was a woman who rejected marriage simply because she feared it would interfere with her archery and sense of adventure. And then when she got into an argument with her mom, she went to see the witch specifically to screw over her mom. Ariel at least had no way of knowing she'd be harming her dad with her going to Ursula since there was definitely no way she could have known. Merida went to that witch with the specific intent of drugging her and force her to see things her way, which actually DOES qualify as selfish and most certainly counts as intending explicit harm on her parents, which then led directly to her mom being turned into a bear, heck, most of her family as well. And overall, Merida was a sociopathic brat, who probably would backstab her parents if it meant ensuring she got her adventure and archery. Hated men as well.

      So no, my criticisms for Belle and Merida are DEFINITELY more than fair, far more than the criticisms towards Ariel right now. Heck, if anything, I'm being nice to Belle and Merida, as I could list a lot WORSE stuff regarding Belle at least, probably also Merida. At least I'm not claiming Belle's an outright man-hater who actually rivals Gaston in hating the opposite sex, and I could easily do that precisely because one of the comics actually did show Belle being that. And I could also easily cite stuff about them that isn't even confirmed to be true, like Belle betraying Beast and joining the French Revolutionaries and even pulling a Nibelheim on her own village.

      And for the record, they certainly communicated far more than Cinderella, Aurora, or Snow White did with their princes. Of them, probably the only one who MIGHT have learned her name was the prince in Snow White regarding the titular character. None of the other princes even got the opportunity to learn their names (either Aurora or Briar Rose in the case of Aurora). Phillip did come close to learning Aurora's pseudonym at the very least, but she ended up running back to the cottage before she could answer. Heck, if anything, they had even LESS reason to get together than Ariel and Eric did, barely even talking. Statistically, Ariel and Eric were far more likely to fall for each other via communication than her predecessors did.

      And the reason why I don't show that courtesy with Belle is because with Belle, she actually WAS in Triton's role there, while Beast if anything was in Ariel's situation. Belle entered without permission Beast's West Wing, deliberately I should add. Heck, she's even worse than Triton there: Unlike Triton, who at least owned up to the fact that he was at fault for Ariel's disappearance, Belle blamed Beast for pretty much everything even when the only thing in that event where Beast can even be blamed for was losing control of his temper, beyond that, literally everything else was indeed Belle's fault (if anything, I actually can understand very well why Beast was very angry, even if I don't like how he lost control like that). And as far as Belle and the mirror, again, unlike with Ariel, who at least had no idea regarding Ursula still being evil (especially when Ursula actually DID feign reform during Poor Unfortunate Souls), Belle already KNEW Gaston was bad, and she certainly got the message that he was evil when he tried to propose to her in exchange for convincing the villagers to release Maurice, thus exposing himself has having instigated the whole thing, and she ALSO should have known, being the "smart girl" she is, that if Gaston would have done that, he most certainly would rabblerouse to kill the Beast specifically to make sure Belle is his alone (don't forget that this was the same girl who deduced the castle was enchanted just from casual observation and not from being told about the curse.). In other words, Ariel at least had no knowledge about Ursula still being evil and would have no reason to go for it, while Belle DID know full well about what Gaston was truly like by that point, and also would have known full well what the villagers were like. And either way, I'd throw that argument right back at you. If I were you and I hated Ariel for those reasons, I'd hate literally EVERYONE who displayed similar behavior in ANY way.

      Either way, you can feel free to hate Ariel for recklessness, since after all, that was indeed a flaw of hers. But don't try to claim she's dumb or selfish or anything like that, because she most certainly wasn't. If anything, she's demonstrated far more of an aptitude for actual intelligence than Belle. At least Ariel's willing to learn from her mistakes and acknowledge she might not know much about humanity. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

      For God's sake man. I'm trying to be reasonable, but you just dismiss my opinion as worthless. 

      I actually agree with your opinion on Merida and I really didn't like Brave, but that's besides the point. I also agree that Belle shoudn't have gone into the West Wing, but I still stand by my point about the mirror thing. Also, Belle says stuff like "this is all my fault", so trying to claim that she blamed Beast for everything is just not true. 

      I need to make one thing clear. I do NOT hate Ariel. She's such an inoffensive character that it's not worth hating her. I don't like her, but she does have some redeeming qualities (adventurous, followed her dreams, great singing voice). 

      Would you please stop trying to completely invalidate my opinion? Just because you think she wasn't dumb, doesn't make it a fact. It's all opinions. You clearly like Ariel more than Belle, and I'm sure there's many people that would agree with you. I'd disagree, and so would many others. Neither of us are right. That's the great thing about opinions: there's no right answer.

      Now, I'll say for the last time, I'm not trying to offend anyone here. If you love Ariel and don't like Belle, then fine. I'm not trying to turn you against Ariel, or Eric, or anything about The Little Mermaid. I'm clearly not gonna convince you that Ariel was dumb or selfish, just like how you're not gonna convince me that Belle was as bad as you say she is. So can you show my opinions a little bit of respect, and then we can agree to disagree, and then move on?

      When I said she "blamed the Beast for everything," I was specifically referring to the Wolf/West Wing incident, where she made absolutely NO effort to even mention how she was at fault at all and instead DID in fact blame Beast for everything. Now, the mirror incident, yes, she did acknowledge it was all her fault, I will give you that much, and is probably the only good thing in that whole mess. I'm standing by my point regarding the mirror, though, as there were PLENTY of ways to saving Maurice that didn't involve either marrying Gaston or exposing the Beast, and Belle, being a smart girl, could easily come up with a plan that succeeds in that goal with minimum casualties. Heck, I can name plenty of Special Forces missions where they managed to complete the mission in tight spots with far less potential casualties or risks on their own end than what Belle did.

      And fine, dislike Ariel all you want. Heck, feel free to claim she was reckless or na√Įve and use THOSE as your reasons for disliking her. I can agree with you under those specific terms. But don't claim Ariel was dumb or selfish. She has her flaws, yes, but dumb and selfish definitely weren't any of them. So long as you don't mention she's dumb or selfish or that she only fell for Eric because of her looks, or heck, even claim she only wanted to become human to have female reproductive parts, I could care less about whether you like her or not. Either way, I'm definitely glad you acknowledge that Ariel had redeemable characteristics, because I've had to deal with a LOT of people online who don't seem to even acknowledge Ariel had redeemable characteristics. And while I can respect you for your opinions, after all, I acknowledged that Ariel had a reckless streak and was na√Įve, something I wouldn't have done if I didn't respect your opinion, that DOESN'T mean I will allow falsehoods to be pushed about characters especially when they are not backed up by the films. Opinions =/= facts, which is why I'm hard on you. I'd be hard on people who claim Ariel was Jesus Christ because she's not that, precisely BECAUSE it's false. And BTW, life has constantly invalidated my opinions when facts come that refuted it, so I've LONG accepted that I don't actually have ANY right to opinions (in fact, I'd even go so far as to say opinions are ultimately the same thing as lying, just as facts = truth). I mean, I could easily claim by my opinion that Ariel's transgender and sexually confused, yet if I were to say that, I'd be laughed out of the room precisely BECAUSE it's obviously not true or factual in any way. So no, opinions aren't the be-all end-all, facts are.

      And you're right, I definitely like Ariel more than Belle. Of course, back when I was a young lad, while I still did like Ariel than Belle, I did like Belle enough to actually have a figurine of Doll as my treasured toy. Back when I was a kid, I would have considered Belle my second-most favorite DP back when I could adhere to DPs. Unfortunately, thanks in large part to several extremely crappy semesters at College where the teachers thought that simply because they were authorized to teach, they were in the right to push agendas on us that had absolutely no relevance to the subject matter at hand, pushing pure propaganda in other words, combined with learning how intellectuals such as Belle were more likely to support the massacre against us Christians since the French Revolution, stumbling upon several comics that actually DID imply that Belle was a huge misandrist comparing them to pigs implicitly and saying she had no intention of associating herself with them, and also interviews with Linda Woolverton where she said that before Belle, all DPs simply waited for their princes to come and were insipid and weak, and made clear that Belle was part of the 1970s feminist ideology, I've stopped liking Belle or especially trusting her (how bad is it? Let me put it this way, despite my not really liking the blonde triplets and if anything I like Belle more than them, I find them a LOT more trustworthy than Belle right now). In fact, I'm actually planning to write a blog that's strictly related to the 1991 film Belle dealing with why she lost my favor. If you're interested, come see it when I'm finished with it. Now, that all being said, Belle DOES have a chance at redeeming herself with a true sequel to the original film. She certainly has more chances than the Rebel Alliance does at redeeming itself after George Lucas admitted that he based them on the Vietcong and the Empire on America.

      Were there really "plenty" of ways that she could've saved Maurice? Without having to assault anyone? Sure, maybe in hindsight, there were other options, but as I've said several times, she was desperate and was running out of time. Bringing up the Special Forces is a flawed comparison. The Special Forces are trained to deal with tough situations, whereas I highly doubt that Belle was.

      I think Ariel was dumb, and that's perfectly valid in my opinion. She had 3 days to kiss a stranger, without talking to him, and if she failed, she would become a prisoner. I think that's dumb. Is anything that I have said there wrong? I don't think that's me pushing "falsehoods" on her. If you disagree with that then fine, but don't tell me that I'm not allowed to consider her dumb, because I know fully well that there are a lot of people out there who agree with me.

      Opinions are lying? What? There's a huge difference between saying that Ariel was dumb, and saying that Ariel was Jesus Christ. And yes, I think there is evidence in the film that backs up my claim that Ariel was dumb. You can use facts to back up your opinion, and it certainly gives them more merit, but it doesn't make your opinion correct. There's never a right or wrong answer with opinions. Simple as that.

      I don't remember any point in the film that suggested Belle would support the massacre of Christians. I haven't heard of these comics that you talk about. I think it's a bit harsh to criticise Belle because Linda Woolverton put her up on a pedestal as a feminist icon. The film or the character aren't responsible for the public response. Sure, I'd be fine with you criticising Linda Woolverton for it, but I think to blame that on Belle is harsh.

      Anyway, I think I'm done with this topic. It's clear that neither of us are gonna budge, so really I think we're just wasting our time. Have a nice day :)

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    • DisneyCWS wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      DisneyCWS wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:
       
      Honestly, what was truly dumb was Belle resorting to the mirror in the first place, especially when she KNEW or at least can easily deduce that Gaston, due to just how far he went to try and force her hand in marriage, would most certainly try to kill any potential rivals for his hand in her marriage (this was the guy who tried to arrange for her dad's arrest, knowing far too well he was actually not dangerous, as blackmail to force her hand in marriage. Do you really think Gaston, after going to that extreme, would NOT rabblerouse the entire village to try and kill the Beast, and the servants once they discover them, when he gets even the slightest hint that Belle might like the Beast more than him? Had it been me in her position, I would have come to that conclusion about Gaston in less than a second.). Strategically, it makes no sense whatsoever and needlessly endangered far more lives than what was necessary, far more than with Ariel and her decision to go for Eric. I don't give a darn about urgency, especially when, if I were in her position, I would NOT have resorted to that strategy at all precisely BECAUSE I'd realize I'd most likely be killing my friends in the process, and instead have done that Special Forces-type job with the paddywagon. Heck, what was also dumb was Belle going into the West Wing, knowingly, despite being forbidden from doing so by not only the Beast himself, but even his servants, and then mindlessly escaping into a blizzard, which not only has the likely immediate effect of being killed by wolves, if not the elements, but also the fact that Beast would most likely capture and imprison her father again due to her violating her end of the bargain. And then she proceeded to blame Beast for everything after saving him when virtually everything there was in fact HER fault (the only thing Beast actually CAN be blamed for was his temper. Everything else was Belle's fault, especially breaking into the West Wing despite specifically being told not to by the servants AND Beast, and while I could understand her ignoring Beast since she hated him that time, her ignoring the servants, who she'd have no reason to ignore since they treated her nicely, is definitely contemptible.), and then won that blame game. And let me remind you that Belle had enough upper body strength to actually LIFT Beast and Maurice up, the former twice, one of which was on-screen, and both of whom make Gaston look like a featherweight in terms of weight at the very least (and as far as Beast, most certainly would tower over Gaston). For all of Ariel's faults, she at least owned up to the fact that the whole situation with Ursula WAS indeed her fault and made no attempt to blame her father for her actions, even when Triton bore more of the blame for the events that transpired, something not even Belle was able to do with Beast. And BTW, stupidity or dumbness entails actually ignoring completely the consequences. Ariel took full consideration of the consequences, ergo, not dumb. And she wasn't selfish, either. Again, you want selfish, try Kuzco, or even Kefka in that video I posted earlier. THAT'S selfish, since the definition for that is you don't care about anyone except for yourself, and are knowing and willing to screw over anyone so long as you get what you want.

      And actually, you only need enough force in the glass bottle or plywood to knock someone out, not any more than that. Look at various pistol whips that are used, or even how that drunk blacksmith managed to knock out Jack Sparrow in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. If even a drunk who by definition would have his senses severely impaired under most cases can merely knock a guy out by breaking a beer bottle against his neck, Belle most certainly can as well, either with a glass bottle or plywood. And you can do it without even drawing attention to yourself. For example, the debut for Nick Torres in NCIS had him stabbing an attempted assassin sent to do him in via the assassin's own knife in such a low-key manner that he didn't even draw attention to himself, especially when he was in a crowded bar at the time. All Belle needed to do was something similar with Gaston, do it in such a low key manner that she wouldn't even be noticed by the other villagers.

      And for the record, my criticisms of Belle and Merida WERE fair. Belle had knowingly gone into the West Wing, largely to spite The Beast (it wasn't because she was lost or anything like that, she knew EXACTLY where she was going, and her tone of "Oh, so that's the west wing, huh?" indicates she definitely didn't have particularly good intentions going in there), then afterwards explicitly violated her end of the bargain by fleeing the Castle during a blizzard, thus not only endangering herself to the elements and the wolves due to her own recklessness, but also her own dad, whom the entire REASON she even agreed to that stipulation of staying at the castle permanently was to allow her dad to be freed from imprisonment, since Beast could have just as easily decided, since she broke her end of the deal, he might as well retrieve Maurice. And don't get me started on how she made things even WORSE with her decision to show people the mirror. Even if she did get caught and get in serious trouble with the villagers, at least the rest of the servants and Beast wouldn't have nearly been KILLED as a result. That's what you to fail to take into consideration, the fact that she got Beast and his servants nearly killed by the villagers, especially when unlike Ariel, Belle most certainly would have had an idea of what the villagers, Gaston especially, would have been like. And quite frankly, as much as Ariel wanted to become human, at least she didn't insult her fellow species from some inflated sense of superiority to them, unlike Belle, who among her first lyrics of the song had her outright insulting her fellow villagers and viewing herself as high and mighty and hating the village for its provinciality, all because she could read. I used to really hold Belle in high regard, but not anymore, not after Spring 2011 where I had to deal with a very much awful feminist professor, and especially after I learned from an interview by Linda Woolverton that Belle was meant to push the radical feminism of the 1970s.

      And as far as Merida, this was a woman who rejected marriage simply because she feared it would interfere with her archery and sense of adventure. And then when she got into an argument with her mom, she went to see the witch specifically to screw over her mom. Ariel at least had no way of knowing she'd be harming her dad with her going to Ursula since there was definitely no way she could have known. Merida went to that witch with the specific intent of drugging her and force her to see things her way, which actually DOES qualify as selfish and most certainly counts as intending explicit harm on her parents, which then led directly to her mom being turned into a bear, heck, most of her family as well. And overall, Merida was a sociopathic brat, who probably would backstab her parents if it meant ensuring she got her adventure and archery. Hated men as well.

      So no, my criticisms for Belle and Merida are DEFINITELY more than fair, far more than the criticisms towards Ariel right now. Heck, if anything, I'm being nice to Belle and Merida, as I could list a lot WORSE stuff regarding Belle at least, probably also Merida. At least I'm not claiming Belle's an outright man-hater who actually rivals Gaston in hating the opposite sex, and I could easily do that precisely because one of the comics actually did show Belle being that. And I could also easily cite stuff about them that isn't even confirmed to be true, like Belle betraying Beast and joining the French Revolutionaries and even pulling a Nibelheim on her own village.

      And for the record, they certainly communicated far more than Cinderella, Aurora, or Snow White did with their princes. Of them, probably the only one who MIGHT have learned her name was the prince in Snow White regarding the titular character. None of the other princes even got the opportunity to learn their names (either Aurora or Briar Rose in the case of Aurora). Phillip did come close to learning Aurora's pseudonym at the very least, but she ended up running back to the cottage before she could answer. Heck, if anything, they had even LESS reason to get together than Ariel and Eric did, barely even talking. Statistically, Ariel and Eric were far more likely to fall for each other via communication than her predecessors did.

      And the reason why I don't show that courtesy with Belle is because with Belle, she actually WAS in Triton's role there, while Beast if anything was in Ariel's situation. Belle entered without permission Beast's West Wing, deliberately I should add. Heck, she's even worse than Triton there: Unlike Triton, who at least owned up to the fact that he was at fault for Ariel's disappearance, Belle blamed Beast for pretty much everything even when the only thing in that event where Beast can even be blamed for was losing control of his temper, beyond that, literally everything else was indeed Belle's fault (if anything, I actually can understand very well why Beast was very angry, even if I don't like how he lost control like that). And as far as Belle and the mirror, again, unlike with Ariel, who at least had no idea regarding Ursula still being evil (especially when Ursula actually DID feign reform during Poor Unfortunate Souls), Belle already KNEW Gaston was bad, and she certainly got the message that he was evil when he tried to propose to her in exchange for convincing the villagers to release Maurice, thus exposing himself has having instigated the whole thing, and she ALSO should have known, being the "smart girl" she is, that if Gaston would have done that, he most certainly would rabblerouse to kill the Beast specifically to make sure Belle is his alone (don't forget that this was the same girl who deduced the castle was enchanted just from casual observation and not from being told about the curse.). In other words, Ariel at least had no knowledge about Ursula still being evil and would have no reason to go for it, while Belle DID know full well about what Gaston was truly like by that point, and also would have known full well what the villagers were like. And either way, I'd throw that argument right back at you. If I were you and I hated Ariel for those reasons, I'd hate literally EVERYONE who displayed similar behavior in ANY way.

      Either way, you can feel free to hate Ariel for recklessness, since after all, that was indeed a flaw of hers. But don't try to claim she's dumb or selfish or anything like that, because she most certainly wasn't. If anything, she's demonstrated far more of an aptitude for actual intelligence than Belle. At least Ariel's willing to learn from her mistakes and acknowledge she might not know much about humanity. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

      For God's sake man. I'm trying to be reasonable, but you just dismiss my opinion as worthless. 

      I actually agree with your opinion on Merida and I really didn't like Brave, but that's besides the point. I also agree that Belle shoudn't have gone into the West Wing, but I still stand by my point about the mirror thing. Also, Belle says stuff like "this is all my fault", so trying to claim that she blamed Beast for everything is just not true. 

      I need to make one thing clear. I do NOT hate Ariel. She's such an inoffensive character that it's not worth hating her. I don't like her, but she does have some redeeming qualities (adventurous, followed her dreams, great singing voice). 

      Would you please stop trying to completely invalidate my opinion? Just because you think she wasn't dumb, doesn't make it a fact. It's all opinions. You clearly like Ariel more than Belle, and I'm sure there's many people that would agree with you. I'd disagree, and so would many others. Neither of us are right. That's the great thing about opinions: there's no right answer.

      Now, I'll say for the last time, I'm not trying to offend anyone here. If you love Ariel and don't like Belle, then fine. I'm not trying to turn you against Ariel, or Eric, or anything about The Little Mermaid. I'm clearly not gonna convince you that Ariel was dumb or selfish, just like how you're not gonna convince me that Belle was as bad as you say she is. So can you show my opinions a little bit of respect, and then we can agree to disagree, and then move on?

      When I said she "blamed the Beast for everything," I was specifically referring to the Wolf/West Wing incident, where she made absolutely NO effort to even mention how she was at fault at all and instead DID in fact blame Beast for everything. Now, the mirror incident, yes, she did acknowledge it was all her fault, I will give you that much, and is probably the only good thing in that whole mess. I'm standing by my point regarding the mirror, though, as there were PLENTY of ways to saving Maurice that didn't involve either marrying Gaston or exposing the Beast, and Belle, being a smart girl, could easily come up with a plan that succeeds in that goal with minimum casualties. Heck, I can name plenty of Special Forces missions where they managed to complete the mission in tight spots with far less potential casualties or risks on their own end than what Belle did.

      And fine, dislike Ariel all you want. Heck, feel free to claim she was reckless or na√Įve and use THOSE as your reasons for disliking her. I can agree with you under those specific terms. But don't claim Ariel was dumb or selfish. She has her flaws, yes, but dumb and selfish definitely weren't any of them. So long as you don't mention she's dumb or selfish or that she only fell for Eric because of her looks, or heck, even claim she only wanted to become human to have female reproductive parts, I could care less about whether you like her or not. Either way, I'm definitely glad you acknowledge that Ariel had redeemable characteristics, because I've had to deal with a LOT of people online who don't seem to even acknowledge Ariel had redeemable characteristics. And while I can respect you for your opinions, after all, I acknowledged that Ariel had a reckless streak and was na√Įve, something I wouldn't have done if I didn't respect your opinion, that DOESN'T mean I will allow falsehoods to be pushed about characters especially when they are not backed up by the films. Opinions =/= facts, which is why I'm hard on you. I'd be hard on people who claim Ariel was Jesus Christ because she's not that, precisely BECAUSE it's false. And BTW, life has constantly invalidated my opinions when facts come that refuted it, so I've LONG accepted that I don't actually have ANY right to opinions (in fact, I'd even go so far as to say opinions are ultimately the same thing as lying, just as facts = truth). I mean, I could easily claim by my opinion that Ariel's transgender and sexually confused, yet if I were to say that, I'd be laughed out of the room precisely BECAUSE it's obviously not true or factual in any way. So no, opinions aren't the be-all end-all, facts are.

      And you're right, I definitely like Ariel more than Belle. Of course, back when I was a young lad, while I still did like Ariel than Belle, I did like Belle enough to actually have a figurine of Doll as my treasured toy. Back when I was a kid, I would have considered Belle my second-most favorite DP back when I could adhere to DPs. Unfortunately, thanks in large part to several extremely crappy semesters at College where the teachers thought that simply because they were authorized to teach, they were in the right to push agendas on us that had absolutely no relevance to the subject matter at hand, pushing pure propaganda in other words, combined with learning how intellectuals such as Belle were more likely to support the massacre against us Christians since the French Revolution, stumbling upon several comics that actually DID imply that Belle was a huge misandrist comparing them to pigs implicitly and saying she had no intention of associating herself with them, and also interviews with Linda Woolverton where she said that before Belle, all DPs simply waited for their princes to come and were insipid and weak, and made clear that Belle was part of the 1970s feminist ideology, I've stopped liking Belle or especially trusting her (how bad is it? Let me put it this way, despite my not really liking the blonde triplets and if anything I like Belle more than them, I find them a LOT more trustworthy than Belle right now). In fact, I'm actually planning to write a blog that's strictly related to the 1991 film Belle dealing with why she lost my favor. If you're interested, come see it when I'm finished with it. Now, that all being said, Belle DOES have a chance at redeeming herself with a true sequel to the original film. She certainly has more chances than the Rebel Alliance does at redeeming itself after George Lucas admitted that he based them on the Vietcong and the Empire on America.

      Were there really "plenty" of ways that she could've saved Maurice? Without having to assault anyone? Sure, maybe in hindsight, there were other options, but as I've said several times, she was desperate and was running out of time. Bringing up the Special Forces is a flawed comparison. The Special Forces are trained to deal with tough situations, whereas I highly doubt that Belle was.

      I think Ariel was dumb, and that's perfectly valid in my opinion. She had 3 days to kiss a stranger, without talking to him, and if she failed, she would become a prisoner. I think that's dumb. Is anything that I have said there wrong? I don't think that's me pushing "falsehoods" on her. If you disagree with that then fine, but don't tell me that I'm not allowed to consider her dumb, because I know fully well that there are a lot of people out there who agree with me.

      Opinions are lying? What? There's a huge difference between saying that Ariel was dumb, and saying that Ariel was Jesus Christ. And yes, I think there is evidence in the film that backs up my claim that Ariel was dumb. You can use facts to back up your opinion, and it certainly gives them more merit, but it doesn't make your opinion correct. There's never a right or wrong answer with opinions. Simple as that.

      I don't remember any point in the film that suggested Belle would support the massacre of Christians. I haven't heard of these comics that you talk about. I think it's a bit harsh to criticise Belle because Linda Woolverton put her up on a pedestal as a feminist icon. The film or the character aren't responsible for the public response. Sure, I'd be fine with you criticising Linda Woolverton for it, but I think to blame that on Belle is harsh.

      Anyway, I think I'm done with this topic. It's clear that neither of us are gonna budge, so really I think we're just wasting our time. Have a nice day :)

      Yes, actually, there were. If I could think of plenty of ways for her to do it, she can as well. And for the record, she was also under intense pressure during her first night at the castle. That never stopped HER from deducing quite accurately that the castle was enchanted just from casually observing the servants. Anyone who can deduce something like that from intensely stressful situations like what happened on her first night where she was forcibly separated from her father and had to deal with someone like the Beast, and THEN learning that a lot of the servants were in fact animate objects would be able to formulate a plan on the fly that would prevent Maurice from being locked up, avoid marrying Gaston, and avoid putting her friends at risk. Had it been me in her position, I wouldn't even CARE if the villagers hate me as a result of the assault, as long as it at least ensures the servants and Beast are kept safe.

      And for the record, Ariel was not dumb, she actually DID take into account the risks. Dumb people don't take into account risks at all. You want dumb, look at all the stuff Homer Simpson does without even taking into account the consequences. And yes, Belle most certainly didn't take into account the consequences of her actions with the mirror, desperate and running out of time or not, especially when she made absolutely no indication that she even thought the plan through (far from it, her shouting "No!" right as Gaston started rabblerousing indicated she didn't even anticipate Gaston would do that, or the villagers doing that either.). If she did, she would have at least mentioned it via inner monologue, such as "I realize this may end badly for Beast and the servants, but I don't see any other options." Something like THAT would have at least made the event a bit more redeemable since it would have made VERY clear she only took that route despite knowing the risks since she didn't see any other options. Ariel, on the other hand, actually attempted to refuse F&J DESPITE being under emotional duress when they directly suggested she go see Ursula, she also voiced reluctance under hearing the conditions of the deal, specifically saying and I quote, "If I do that, I'll never see my father and sisters again." And when Ursula stated her voice would be the payment, Ariel even tried to point out that would make trying to have Eric fall in love even MORE difficult for obvious reasons. That's not what a dumb person does. A dumb person wouldn't even QUESTION why she'd do something like that, which she very clearly did. And I'll supply the quote if I must:

      Ursula: Now, here's the deal. I will make you a potion that will turn you into a human for three days. Got that? Three days. Now listen, this is important. Before the sun sets on the third day, you've got to get dear ol' princey to fall in love with you. That is, he's got to kiss you. Not just any kiss - the kiss of true love. If he does kiss you before the sun sets on the third day, you'll remain human, permanently, but - if he doesn't, you turn back into a mermaid, and - you belong to me.

      Sebastian: No Ariel! (He is silenced by Flotsam and Jetsam.)

      Ursula: Have we got a deal?

      Ariel: If I become human, I'll never be with my father or sisters again.

      Ursula: That's right. . . . But - you'll have your man. Life's full of tough choices, innit? Oh - and there is one more thing. We haven't discussed the subject of payment. You can't get something for nothing, you know.

      Ariel: But I don't have any -

      Ursula: I'm not asking much. Just a token, really, a trifle. You'll never even miss it. What I want from you is . . . your voice.

      Ariel: My voice?

      Ursula: You've got it, sweetcakes. No more talking, singing, zip.

      Ariel: But without my voice, how can I -

      Ursula: You'll have your looks! Your pretty face! And don't underestimate the importance of body language! Ha!

      Emphasis mine. If Ariel were truly as stupid as you claim her to be, those bolded statements would NEVER have occurred, precisely because a truly stupid person wouldn't even question it, or even express any hesitance about it. To make my point, take how James got conned into buying a Magikarp. Had Ariel actually been dumb, stupid, what have you, the deal would have been made a whole lot sooner, heck, F&J wouldn't have even NEEDED to fling the statue remains at her to even reconsider her initial answer for that matter, she'd be on board as fast as James was when he got Magikarp, very eager to do it. For another example, try how Jafar got tricked into wasting his final wish into becoming a Genie without even THINKING about the potential consequences. Even if I hated Ariel with my guts, I'd STILL wouldn't denounce her as stupid precisely because she doesn't match up with genuine stupidity.

      And yes, Opinions are lying. Lying means falsehoods, and opinions, as they are not facts, are inherently false, which is why I inherently refuse to even use opinions for even my own sake. Now, the only exception to falsehoods being lying is if they were mistakes.

      As far as the bit about Belle supporting the massacre of Christians, that's my point, because I deduced that myself and wasn't actually stated in any sources, due to her literacy and her failure to even demonstrate actual discernment of literature in the film. Robespierre and Marat also loved literature, since they were pretty big fans of the Enlightenment Philosophers, Rousseau especially, and even Sade's works played at least some role in the horrors of that time, such as Jean-Baptiste Carrier's use of the term "Le flambeau de la philosophie" in reference to the drownings, and later the fact that Joseph Lebon and his wife used 120 Nights's illustrations as inspiration for what they did to Guillotine victims. And as far as the comics, I can name them: The New Adventures of Beauty and the Beast, issue 1, the second story section called Bewildered. You can find it on Enchanted Rose. You can recognize it as the one where Belle basically refuses to play with the kids outside. Heck, I'll even provide the actual page this occurred on: http://beautybeast.enchanted-rose.org/library/displayimage.php?pid=13702&fullsize=1 And for more context: http://beautybeast.enchanted-rose.org/library/displayimage.php?album=100&pid=13702#top_display_media So far as Linda Woolverton, maybe if Woolverton also didn't make it clear that she basically made Belle a self-insert character of herself, I'd forgive that bit, but that wasn't what happened. Besides, after some crap Hideo Kojima did with Peace Walker and most of the Metal Gear series by forcing his views onto us, including praising of a certain terrorist in Central America with no mention of negatives at all that left a lot of the characters extremely unlikeable, I'm not going to leave things to chance by just blaming the creator.

      Well, that's all I can say on the matter right now.

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    • KIDS, CHOOSE YOUR OWN BELIEFS, HOWEVER EVEN WITH HER DECISION ARIEL DID HER BEST TO BE CAUTIOUS QUIT MOCKING HER!

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    • Ariel has wisdom and knows how to be cautions KIDS it's her father who talks harshly. Harsh words that's part of why Ariel went to Ursula, she didn't think father would ever accept her strong wish, she didn't see the sea witch because of being careless. Plus Ariel smart enough to see the arrogance her father treats the humans with, so she tries to slow him down when he's not thinking things through. That another problem with Triton he doesn't think things through before talking with Ariel. There's a¬† big difference in arrogance and being decisive KIDS! Just like there's a difference in knowing a consequence, and unawareness of a consequence related to your plan, or wish confusing you! Ariel's as careful as possible with her current knowledge, no one knows everything about the future, and harsh moments can make life harder.

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    • Hercules Fangirl wrote:
      Why does the film that started the Disney Renaissance get lots of hate? I personally love this film. (Plus Ariel is my favorite princess ūü§ó)

      www.commonsensemedia.org THAT'S WHY

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    • A FANDOM user
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