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  •  Ever since I heard Disney gutted hand drawn animation with lay offs three years ago, I was very upset. I want to see Disney do another hand drawn animated feature, but sadly, they can't! They already killed it for financial reasons. I know they've been using a meander for shorts like Paperman, but I doubt they'll use it for future animated features. DVDizzy.com officially declared that hand drawn animation is dead at disney. They said that Disney studios only have four hand drawn animators, and that's not enough to do future animated feature with meander. With that being said, I feel like giving up hope for hand drawn animation and decided to get with the time and accept reality that hand drawn animation is dead. And I think Klaus, Hullabaloo, and Dragon's Lair will fail. And all of you need to wake up before you guys get hurt or worse. I'm sorry, but I can't take this long obsession any more.

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    • Don't give up now. I know I'm not.

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    • I don't want to give up hope either.

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    • don't give up! Brad Bird might be the one to revive it!

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    • Though this isn't quite the same thing I understand how you feel. There was something else I really loved about Disney movies that they stopped doing (though it stopped three films into their "CGI era", because Tangled and Wreck-It Ralph did it), and I don't think they're ever going to do it again, which makes me sad. If Disney ever does it again, I'm adopting a monkey as my nephew and watching all five Twilight movies with him.

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    • They 'killed' it because 'fans' of Disney's hand-drawn animated films didn't make it worth Disney's while. After Atlantis: The Lost Kingdom (underperformed), Treasure Planet (bomb), Home On The Range (bomb), Princess & The Frog (average performer) and Winnie The Pooh (barely profitable), why would Disney bother? Where were these 'fans' when these films came out? Or are all of you the sort of people who think Disney should do these things just so you can say 'Yes, they care about traditional animation!', not because you intend on supporting it? It's just validation for all of you?

      Would I like to see a new 2D Disney film? Hell-yes! I love both their 2D and 3D ones and it would be nice to see them go old-school once in a while. BUT, do I expect them to do so because I want them to, not because it should be worth the time and money for them to make it? No.

      Seriously, stop acting as if Disney just gave up. YOU were who they made the films for. YOU should've gone out and supported them when they were out.

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    • Carebearheart wrote:
      don't give up! Brad Bird might be the one to revive it!

      I hope so!

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    • Stitch's Fifth Arm wrote:
      They 'killed' it because 'fans' of Disney's hand-drawn animated films didn't make it worth Disney's while. After Atlantis: The Lost Kingdom (underperformed), Treasure Planet (bomb), Home On The Range (bomb), Princess & The Frog (average performer) and Winnie The Pooh (barely profitable), why would Disney bother? Where were these 'fans' when these films came out? Or are all of you the sort of people who think Disney should do these things just so you can say 'Yes, they care about traditional animation!', not because you intend on supporting it? It's just validation for all of you?

      Would I like to see a new 2D Disney film? Hell-yes! I love both their 2D and 3D ones and it would be nice to see them go old-school once in a while. BUT, do I expect them to do so because I want them to, not because it should be worth the time and money for them to make it? No.

      Seriously, stop acting as if Disney just gave up. YOU were who they made the films for. YOU should've gone out and supported them when they were out.

      So much truth in every single word you said. If only all those 2D newbies could understand that.

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    • Atlantis: The Lost Kingdom? Which was that? (Or did you mean The Lost Empire? I thought that one was good, though lacking in the song department)

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    • Yes, I meant Empire. My mistake. What I posted still stands, though.

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    • I'd like to bring up some points about why the Post Renaissance movies really failed, along with the early Revival Era movies. The reasons are usually two : poor choice of release dates along with too much competition, or products that aren't particularly Worth the effort.

      Reason A fits with Treasure Planet (it was released the same days as Harry Potter and The Chamber of Secrets), Princess and The Frog (2012 and FREAKING Avatar), and Winnie The Pooh (Harry Potter again). All are perfectly enjoyable and competently made movies but were bound to fail due to poor advertisement or awful release dates amongst too hefty competitors.

      Reason B fits with Atlantis and Home on The Range. Both were rather mediocre and unappealing (although Atlantis was the more interesting of the two), and once again, poor advertisement.

      So basically, Disney is the reason they failed, but they blamed the industry and the audience.

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    • I didn't know Atlantis got so much hate. I thought it was pretty good

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    • Without 2-D animation, we can't have even any sequels some people wished to see for their favorite Disney animated movies.

      Years I had hoped they'd make a 2nd Dumbo or Oliver & Company movie (where the protagonists are either in their teens or adults, Smitty tries to get his revenge on dumbo, and Oliver finds love in the end).

      Recently, I've thought of a Fox and the Hound 3 (where they are adults again and have kids at the end) and Pinocchio 2 (concerning the boys-turned-donkeys' rescue and re-transformation).

      I may have almost given up hope but I will never stop thinking or dreaming about such wonderful things.

      Let's not forget we grew up with this stuff. It's part of our life and happiness too. And it would be a shame to see it go away all of a sudden forever. What about future generations? What will they think and say? What if they can't grow up the same way we did and appreciate things we cherished in our youth too. These are things we grew up with and will never grow out of either.

      And if Disney were here today, he would be as disappointed as we all are now anyway. I'm sure he wouldn't have given up or wanted any of us to do so either.

      (
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    • Olivier Baghdadi wrote:
      Without 2-D animation, we can't have even any sequels some people wished to see for their favorite Disney animated movies.

      Years I had hoped they'd make a 2nd Dumbo or Oliver & Company movie (where the protagonists are either in their teens or adults, Smitty tries to get his revenge on dumbo, and Oliver finds love in the end).

      Recently, I've thought of a Fox and the Hound 3 (where they are adults again and have kids at the end) and Pinocchio 2 (concerning the boys-turned-donkeys' rescue and re-transformation).

      I may have almost given up hope but I will never stop thinking or dreaming about such wonderful things.

      Let's not forget we grew up with this stuff. It's part of our life and happiness too. And it would be a shame to see it go away all of a sudden forever. What about future generations? What will they think and say? What if they can't grow up the same way we did and appreciate things we cherished in our youth too. These are things we grew up with and will never grow out of either.

      And if Disney were here today, he would be as disappointed as we all are now anyway. I'm sure he wouldn't have given up or wanted any of us to do so either.

      (

      You're absolutely right!  2D IS A PART OF OUR LIVES!

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    • Site Looker wrote:
      Olivier Baghdadi wrote:
      Without 2-D animation, we can't have even any sequels some people wished to see for their favorite Disney animated movies.

      Years I had hoped they'd make a 2nd Dumbo or Oliver & Company movie (where the protagonists are either in their teens or adults, Smitty tries to get his revenge on dumbo, and Oliver finds love in the end).

      Recently, I've thought of a Fox and the Hound 3 (where they are adults again and have kids at the end) and Pinocchio 2 (concerning the boys-turned-donkeys' rescue and re-transformation).

      I may have almost given up hope but I will never stop thinking or dreaming about such wonderful things.

      Let's not forget we grew up with this stuff. It's part of our life and happiness too. And it would be a shame to see it go away all of a sudden forever. What about future generations? What will they think and say? What if they can't grow up the same way we did and appreciate things we cherished in our youth too. These are things we grew up with and will never grow out of either.

      And if Disney were here today, he would be as disappointed as we all are now anyway. I'm sure he wouldn't have given up or wanted any of us to do so either.

      (
      You're absolutely right!  2D IS A PART OF OUR LIVES!


      That's right, Oliver and Site Looker. I'm sure there are a few good CGI animated films, but I think it was the beginning of the end of an era for animated movies, just as it was for the home video business as soon as DVD, Blu-ray and digital streaming show up. The art, voices and gags were all better in the hand-drawn traditional animation movies...

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    • LegalizeAnythingMuppets wrote:
      Site Looker wrote:
      Olivier Baghdadi wrote:
      Without 2-D animation, we can't have even any sequels some people wished to see for their favorite Disney animated movies.

      Years I had hoped they'd make a 2nd Dumbo or Oliver & Company movie (where the protagonists are either in their teens or adults, Smitty tries to get his revenge on dumbo, and Oliver finds love in the end).

      Recently, I've thought of a Fox and the Hound 3 (where they are adults again and have kids at the end) and Pinocchio 2 (concerning the boys-turned-donkeys' rescue and re-transformation).

      I may have almost given up hope but I will never stop thinking or dreaming about such wonderful things.

      Let's not forget we grew up with this stuff. It's part of our life and happiness too. And it would be a shame to see it go away all of a sudden forever. What about future generations? What will they think and say? What if they can't grow up the same way we did and appreciate things we cherished in our youth too. These are things we grew up with and will never grow out of either.

      And if Disney were here today, he would be as disappointed as we all are now anyway. I'm sure he wouldn't have given up or wanted any of us to do so either.

      (
      You're absolutely right!  2D IS A PART OF OUR LIVES!

      That's right, Oliver and Site Looker. I'm sure there are a few good CGI animated films, but I think it was the beginning of the end of an era for animated movies, just as it was for the home video business as soon as DVD, Blu-ray and digital streaming show up. The art, voices and gags were all better in the hand-drawn traditional animation movies...

      Amen!

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    • @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.

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    • TRIMC 95 wrote: @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.

      And if you have nothing nice to say to me, don't say it either. Don't ever call me an Animation snob or a minority either. I wasnt trying to act like one either. You are making more assumptions than ever. I never said I hated 3-D movies or had something against it. I like them and find them breath taking too but some people miss the old ways. I wasnt trying to speak for everyone. Was speaking for the users commenting here. I never said I pr anyone else was disappointed with Disney either. Im not picking a fight too.

      Btw, I know Disney wudve LOVED 3-D but still, he wudnt have wanted to give up the old ways or 2-D either. He started and finished it that way. It's just a thought. Not an assumption. Never jump into the wrong conclusions again.

      Btw, Im no pessimist or trying to spread negativity either. I hate it.

      Im just speaking out from my heart and getting a few things off my chest. Using my words.

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    • TRIMC 95 wrote:
      @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.


      Well, to be fair, TRIMC 95, DVDs and Blu-rays pretty much are overused in recent years. A lot of good rarities and oddities are usually found on VHS or laserdisc.

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    • Olivier Baghdadi wrote:

      TRIMC 95 wrote: @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.

      And if you have nothing nice to say to me, don't say it either. Don't ever call me an Animation snob or a minority either. I wasnt trying to act like one either. You are making more assumptions than ever. I never said I hated 3-D movies or had something against it. I like them and find them breath taking too but some people miss the old ways. I wasnt trying to speak for everyone. Was speaking for the users commenting here. I never said I pr anyone else was disappointed with Disney either. Im not picking a fight too.

      Btw, I know Disney wudve LOVED 3-D but still, he wudnt have wanted to give up the old ways or 2-D either. He started and finished it that way. It's just a thought. Not an assumption. Never jump into the wrong conclusions again.

      Btw, Im no pessimist or trying to spread negativity either. I hate it.

      Im just speaking out from my heart and getting a few things off my chest. Using my words.

      Well said Olivier, you tell him.

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    • KillRoy231 wrote: I didn't know Atlantis got so much hate. I thought it was pretty good

      Oh, I did like Atlantis as kid too ! But apparently, it did get slammed by reviewers.....

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    • As for hand drawn animation, in order to revive it there are two alternatives :

      A. Create something so gorgeous, Amazing to look at, but also well written and directed, that people will be hooked up by it by the first trailer. And yes, that means good advertisement and release date. Like, I dunno, revive some old projects like Antonius (given the success of Zootopia due to being an anthro movie), or Aida (what about fusing the two, since they have very similar concepts ?), or hell, a remake of Kingdom of The Sun, that still reuses the unused songs audio.

      B. On the animation department, do something like this, but improved to uptenth degree : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9dY5zkwK5M&t=50s

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    • Olivier Baghdadi wrote:

      TRIMC 95 wrote: @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.

      And if you have nothing nice to say to me, don't say it either. Don't ever call me an Animation snob or a minority either. I wasnt trying to act like one either. You are making more assumptions than ever. I never said I hated 3-D movies or had something against it. I like them and find them breath taking too but some people miss the old ways. I wasnt trying to speak for everyone. Was speaking for the users commenting here. I never said I pr anyone else was disappointed with Disney either. Im not picking a fight too.

      Btw, I know Disney wudve LOVED 3-D but still, he wudnt have wanted to give up the old ways or 2-D either. He started and finished it that way. It's just a thought. Not an assumption. Never jump into the wrong conclusions again.

      Btw, Im no pessimist or trying to spread negativity either. I hate it.

      Im just speaking out from my heart and getting a few things off my chest. Using my words.

      Sadly, for better or worse, that's exactly how you act like, regardless if you don't want to. I don't make any assumptions. I'm simply talking about what I'm seeing and reading here.

      If you "miss the old days", again, go watch your precious movies at home and stop talking like 2D is something superior to 3D. The truth couldn't be further from it.

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    • LegalizeAnythingMuppets wrote:
      TRIMC 95 wrote:
      @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.


      Well, to be fair, TRIMC 95, DVDs and Blu-rays pretty much are overused in recent years. A lot of good rarities and oddities are usually found on VHS or laserdisc.

      Again, people are moving forward. It's called progression.

      What is the point in using VHS, when DVDs and Blu-rays can provide you the same movie with better sound and video quality?

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    • @TRIMC95 : People do not mind the absence of hand drawn animation simply because they've been fed with CGI solely for years. They forgot about it, which is sad.

      I don't mind CGI, although sometimes it really gets too same-y looking, while hand drawn animation has a more distinct feel.

      Hand drawn animation needs to be revived and revised, that's all.

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    • Not at the risk of replacing CGI, it doesn't. And no, no one has forgotten about 2D, but s***ting on CGI for the sake of bringing back 2D, now, that's sad.

      If hand drawn animation is to be revived, it should not be done so at the expense of CGI. Co-existence is the best solution.

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    • Nothing should be at the expense of the other. Again, I don't mind CGI, and when it's done correctly, it can be really gorgeous and have a distinctive feel to it, like Tangled or Pixar movies. But I mean, come on, 6 years since Winnie The Pooh and 8 since The Princess and The Frog !

      If Disney was more pragmatic, they would do one hand-drawn movie one year, and a CGI one the following. Or have them both the same year.

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    • Sensible.

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    • Yeah, that too.

      Btw, have you read my proposals ? What do you think ?

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    • At this point, Disney has to take a blind shot and hope that an (alleged) upcoming hand drawn film will make a good box office revenue. With their movies in the past 6 years, they have already rebuilt their name to the public. All they have to do is test their luck. If the supposed film ends up underperforming and being barely profitable, then people can forget seeing a hand drawn film for the next 10 years. 

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    • Sorry, late answer, I haven't. Are they in your blogs?

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    • Oh, right, they were submerged by your comment XD (No hard feelings)

      As for hand drawn animation, in order to revive it there are two alternatives :

      A. Create something so gorgeous, Amazing to look at, but also well written and directed, that people will be hooked up by it by the first trailer. And yes, that means good advertisement and release date. Like, I dunno, revive some old projects like Antonius (given the success of Zootopia due to being an anthro movie), or Aida (what about fusing the two, since they have very similar concepts ?), or hell, a remake of Kingdom of The Sun, that still reuses the unused songs audio.

      B. On the animation department, do something like this, but improved to uptenth degree : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9dY5zkwK5M&t=50s

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    • Also, Desenchanted, whenever it will be released (hopefully next year), might be the occasion to test the waters again with hand drawn animation.

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    • Dan1394 wrote:
      Nothing should be at the expense of the other. Again, I don't mind CGI, and when it's done correctly, it can be really gorgeous and have a distinctive feel to it, like Tangled or Pixar movies. But I mean, come on, 6 years since Winnie The Pooh and 8 since The Princess and The Frog !

      If Disney was more pragmatic, they would do one hand-drawn movie one year, and a CGI one the following. Or have them both the same year.

      That wouldn't be such a bad idea.

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    • @Site Looker : Thanks. Gotta tell Lasseter & Co. that, though.

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    • Another thing would be to either try and contact the 90s crew (I like to call them "The New Old Men" : Andreas Deja, Glen Keane, Kathy Zielinski, Nik Ranieri etc.), plus contact some new blood who is genuinely interested in hand drawn animation.

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    • TRIMC 95 wrote:
      Olivier Baghdadi wrote:

      TRIMC 95 wrote: @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.

      And if you have nothing nice to say to me, don't say it either. Don't ever call me an Animation snob or a minority either. I wasnt trying to act like one either. You are making more assumptions than ever. I never said I hated 3-D movies or had something against it. I like them and find them breath taking too but some people miss the old ways. I wasnt trying to speak for everyone. Was speaking for the users commenting here. I never said I pr anyone else was disappointed with Disney either. Im not picking a fight too.

      Btw, I know Disney wudve LOVED 3-D but still, he wudnt have wanted to give up the old ways or 2-D either. He started and finished it that way. It's just a thought. Not an assumption. Never jump into the wrong conclusions again.

      Btw, Im no pessimist or trying to spread negativity either. I hate it.

      Im just speaking out from my heart and getting a few things off my chest. Using my words.

      Sadly, for better or worse, that's exactly how you act like, regardless if you don't want to. I don't make any assumptions. I'm simply talking about what I'm seeing and reading here.

      If you "miss the old days", again, go watch your precious movies at home and stop talking like 2D is something superior to 3D. The truth couldn't be further from it.

      Everyone makes assumptions. Nobody is perfect. Besides, what I'm saying does NOT lead to a competition about which animation is better. This is NOT a competition. Btw, it's been 6 years since I've been told by my strict parents not to watch such movies anymore for who knows how much longer. And you don't tell me what to do. You have no right. 

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    • TRIMC 95 wrote:
      LegalizeAnythingMuppets wrote:
      TRIMC 95 wrote:
      @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.


      Well, to be fair, TRIMC 95, DVDs and Blu-rays pretty much are overused in recent years. A lot of good rarities and oddities are usually found on VHS or laserdisc.
      Again, people are moving forward. It's called progression.

      What is the point in using VHS, when DVDs and Blu-rays can provide you the same movie with better sound and video quality?

      Some movies are hard to find on DVDS in all territories nowadays. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find Disney's Blackbeard's Ghost, The Gnome Mobile, The Apple Dumpling Gang, and That Darn Cat on DVD in Lebanon these days?

      I'm still lucky to own them on VHS as of today. It wasn't until last year in which I finally found and saw Disney's The Three Caballeros on DVD in my country for the first time after years of searching and watching the VHS.

        Loading editor
    • Olivier Baghdadi wrote:
      TRIMC 95 wrote:
      Olivier Baghdadi wrote:

      TRIMC 95 wrote: @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.

      And if you have nothing nice to say to me, don't say it either. Don't ever call me an Animation snob or a minority either. I wasnt trying to act like one either. You are making more assumptions than ever. I never said I hated 3-D movies or had something against it. I like them and find them breath taking too but some people miss the old ways. I wasnt trying to speak for everyone. Was speaking for the users commenting here. I never said I pr anyone else was disappointed with Disney either. Im not picking a fight too.

      Btw, I know Disney wudve LOVED 3-D but still, he wudnt have wanted to give up the old ways or 2-D either. He started and finished it that way. It's just a thought. Not an assumption. Never jump into the wrong conclusions again.

      Btw, Im no pessimist or trying to spread negativity either. I hate it.

      Im just speaking out from my heart and getting a few things off my chest. Using my words.

      Sadly, for better or worse, that's exactly how you act like, regardless if you don't want to. I don't make any assumptions. I'm simply talking about what I'm seeing and reading here.

      If you "miss the old days", again, go watch your precious movies at home and stop talking like 2D is something superior to 3D. The truth couldn't be further from it.

      Everyone makes assumptions. Nobody is perfect. Besides, what I'm saying does NOT lead to a competition about which animation is better. This is NOT a competition. Btw, it's been 6 years since I've been told by my strict parents not to watch such movies anymore for who knows how much longer. And you don't tell me what to do. You have no right. 

      Then take it up with your parents, not me. 

        Loading editor
    • Olivier Baghdadi wrote:
      TRIMC 95 wrote:
      LegalizeAnythingMuppets wrote:
      TRIMC 95 wrote:
      @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.


      Well, to be fair, TRIMC 95, DVDs and Blu-rays pretty much are overused in recent years. A lot of good rarities and oddities are usually found on VHS or laserdisc.
      Again, people are moving forward. It's called progression.

      What is the point in using VHS, when DVDs and Blu-rays can provide you the same movie with better sound and video quality?

      Some movies are hard to find on DVDS in all territories nowadays. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find Disney's Blackbeard's Ghost, The Gnome Mobile, The Apple Dumpling Gang, and That Darn Cat on DVD in Lebanon these days?

      I'm still lucky to own them on VHS as of today. It wasn't until last year in which I finally found and saw Disney's The Three Caballeros on DVD in my country for the first time after years of searching and watching the VHS.

      And considering that VHS is dead now, DVDs and Blu-rays is the only way to find a movie today. So get used to it.

        Loading editor
    • @Dan, I think your proposals are basically the only way for a 2D movie to be made. Everything depends on advertising and good timing.

        Loading editor
    • TRIMC 95 wrote:

      Olivier Baghdadi wrote:
      TRIMC 95 wrote:
      Olivier Baghdadi wrote:

      TRIMC 95 wrote: @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.

      And if you have nothing nice to say to me, don't say it either. Don't ever call me an Animation snob or a minority either. I wasnt trying to act like one either. You are making more assumptions than ever. I never said I hated 3-D movies or had something against it. I like them and find them breath taking too but some people miss the old ways. I wasnt trying to speak for everyone. Was speaking for the users commenting here. I never said I pr anyone else was disappointed with Disney either. Im not picking a fight too.

      Btw, I know Disney wudve LOVED 3-D but still, he wudnt have wanted to give up the old ways or 2-D either. He started and finished it that way. It's just a thought. Not an assumption. Never jump into the wrong conclusions again.

      Btw, Im no pessimist or trying to spread negativity either. I hate it.

      Im just speaking out from my heart and getting a few things off my chest. Using my words.

      Sadly, for better or worse, that's exactly how you act like, regardless if you don't want to. I don't make any assumptions. I'm simply talking about what I'm seeing and reading here.

      If you "miss the old days", again, go watch your precious movies at home and stop talking like 2D is something superior to 3D. The truth couldn't be further from it.

      Everyone makes assumptions. Nobody is perfect. Besides, what I'm saying does NOT lead to a competition about which animation is better. This is NOT a competition. Btw, it's been 6 years since I've been told by my strict parents not to watch such movies anymore for who knows how much longer. And you don't tell me what to do. You have no right. 

      Then take it up with your parents, not me. 

      Then let me be myself. Im free to express my feelings and opinions about anything. I never pick up fights either thats for sure. Plus I hate being criticized. Besides, i dont intend to "take it up" with anyone. You started this conversation all because of our personal opinions so now it stops here.

        Loading editor
    • If you "hate being criticized", then you propably shouldn't have an Internet account in the first place. 

      You put your theses out there, prepare to be engaged in conversation and other opinions. It's the way the world works.

        Loading editor
    • TRIMC 95 wrote: If you "hate being criticized", then you propably shouldn't have an Internet account in the first place. 

      You put your theses out there, prepare to be engaged in conversation and other opinions. It's the way the world works.

      I'm a low-degree autistic. It's in my nature to be like that.

        Loading editor
    • Olivier Baghdadi wrote:
      TRIMC 95 wrote:
      Olivier Baghdadi wrote:

      TRIMC 95 wrote: @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.

      And if you have nothing nice to say to me, don't say it either. Don't ever call me an Animation snob or a minority either. I wasnt trying to act like one either. You are making more assumptions than ever. I never said I hated 3-D movies or had something against it. I like them and find them breath taking too but some people miss the old ways. I wasnt trying to speak for everyone. Was speaking for the users commenting here. I never said I pr anyone else was disappointed with Disney either. Im not picking a fight too.

      Btw, I know Disney wudve LOVED 3-D but still, he wudnt have wanted to give up the old ways or 2-D either. He started and finished it that way. It's just a thought. Not an assumption. Never jump into the wrong conclusions again.

      Btw, Im no pessimist or trying to spread negativity either. I hate it.

      Im just speaking out from my heart and getting a few things off my chest. Using my words.

      Sadly, for better or worse, that's exactly how you act like, regardless if you don't want to. I don't make any assumptions. I'm simply talking about what I'm seeing and reading here.

      If you "miss the old days", again, go watch your precious movies at home and stop talking like 2D is something superior to 3D. The truth couldn't be further from it.

      Everyone makes assumptions. Nobody is perfect. Besides, what I'm saying does NOT lead to a competition about which animation is better. This is NOT a competition. Btw, it's been 6 years since I've been told by my strict parents not to watch such movies anymore for who knows how much longer. And you don't tell me what to do. You have no right. 

      Jeeze, they sound like real killjoys. People should be allowed to like whatever shows they want to even if others dislike them

        Loading editor
    • KillRoy231 wrote:
      Olivier Baghdadi wrote:
      TRIMC 95 wrote:
      Olivier Baghdadi wrote:

      TRIMC 95 wrote: @LegalizeAnything, you do know that DVD and Blu Ray are considered "home video buisness" too, right?

      @Oliver, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions... We don't know what Walt would feel if he was here today. And even if he was, he still would have made major changes to the company. As he did. Compare his latest work before he died with his earlier works. They're worlds apart. You can't make the same thing over and over again, without it getting stale. You move forward, you try and go by what society demands. Quit acting like animation snob, like you're better than us, as if you're gonna be vindicated here by other users, because you prefer older movies to newer ones. You only bring unnecessary altercations and petty quarrels. Appreciate the fact that Disney makes breath-taking movies even till today. 

      Oh, and generalizations. You're not speaking for everyone here, not everyone is dissapointed with Disney. In fact, the majority of people are just fine with how things are with Disney today and how they have returned to making masterpieces even to this day. You're actually the minority. Not only here, but everywhere else as well. Appreciate what you have and try not to be stuck in the past. If you can't, you can always go home and watch all those movies you like. Stop spreading negativity to the other users here.

      And if you have nothing nice to say to me, don't say it either. Don't ever call me an Animation snob or a minority either. I wasnt trying to act like one either. You are making more assumptions than ever. I never said I hated 3-D movies or had something against it. I like them and find them breath taking too but some people miss the old ways. I wasnt trying to speak for everyone. Was speaking for the users commenting here. I never said I pr anyone else was disappointed with Disney either. Im not picking a fight too.

      Btw, I know Disney wudve LOVED 3-D but still, he wudnt have wanted to give up the old ways or 2-D either. He started and finished it that way. It's just a thought. Not an assumption. Never jump into the wrong conclusions again.

      Btw, Im no pessimist or trying to spread negativity either. I hate it.

      Im just speaking out from my heart and getting a few things off my chest. Using my words.

      Sadly, for better or worse, that's exactly how you act like, regardless if you don't want to. I don't make any assumptions. I'm simply talking about what I'm seeing and reading here.

      If you "miss the old days", again, go watch your precious movies at home and stop talking like 2D is something superior to 3D. The truth couldn't be further from it.

      Everyone makes assumptions. Nobody is perfect. Besides, what I'm saying does NOT lead to a competition about which animation is better. This is NOT a competition. Btw, it's been 6 years since I've been told by my strict parents not to watch such movies anymore for who knows how much longer. And you don't tell me what to do. You have no right. 
      Jeeze, they sound like real killjoys. People should be allowed to like whatever shows they want to even if others dislike them


      That's right. It's everyone's own opinion about what they like and what they don't like at all. For instance, I think that DVDs, Blu-rays and digital streaming are usually what make the biggest downfall in home video history. Besides, a lot of good stuff on DVDs have just been being used again and again in cheap DVD releases, nothing new, nothing good.

        Loading editor
    • "People should be allowed to like whatever shows they want to even if others dislike them."

      More assumptions. I never said I dislike hand drawn animation. I don't go on 2D movies' pages and write that they're awful, while CGI is superior. I compliment the merits of both mediums.

      "Jeeze, they sound like real killjoys." 

      If you're referring to me, you guessed wrong. I'm no killjoy. I just want people to respect both ends, cause that's the only fair and right thing. It's you lot that have a problem with accepting 3D/CGI. And that says more about you than it says about me.

        Loading editor
    • Can you guys just please lay off this pointless argument and go back the topic ?

        Loading editor
    • TRIMC 95 wrote:
      "People should be allowed to like whatever shows they want to even if others dislike them."

      More assumptions. I never said I dislike hand drawn animation. I don't go on 2D movies' pages and write that they're awful, while CGI is superior. I compliment the merits of both mediums.

      "Jeeze, they sound like real killjoys." 

      If you're referring to me, you guessed wrong. I'm no killjoy. I just want people to respect both ends, cause that's the only fair and right thing. It's you lot that have a problem with accepting 3D/CGI. And that says more about you than it says about me.

      No, I wasn't talking about anyone here.

        Loading editor
    • Sure you didn't.

        Loading editor
    • And fyi I'm all about respecting the opinions of others even if I disagree with them

        Loading editor
    • Also I like both, provided they meet my standards. Though the only CGI Disney movies I like that do are Tangled (which was all right) and Wreck-It Ralph (which was awesome), but if we're counting Pixar: A Bug's Life, The Incredibles, and Up, and for non-Disney, there's Shrek and Kung Fu Panda.

      But more of the 2D animated Disney movies meet my standards, which is why I like more of the 2D animated ones than CGI ones, but it's not really a factor for me which it is. Though Hercules doesn't quite it's still pretty awesome, better than Zootopia or even ones like Tangled or Sleeping Beauty.

        Loading editor
    • All are equally good with each other.

        Loading editor
    • I like both hand drawn and CGI, however I find all 3 post WiR Disney movies very lacking, minus Moana, that looks like a mild improvement, maybe due to Musker and Clements as directors, and Lin Manuel Miranda as one of the lyricists.

        Loading editor
    • Honestly, I'm fine with either medium. I'd rather not be picky.

        Loading editor
    • Man, I haven't been in this thread for a long time. I see there's an arguement there between Oliver and Trimc. Let's not argue in this thread, please. This is a sympathy discussion, not Jerry Springer. Because that will make my debbie downer behavior even worse. Anyway, I agree that Walt Disney will love 3d animation, but I don't think he wants 2d animation to be dead.As much as I hope Klaus will be successful in 2019, but there's one problem. Disney officially, i repeat, officially declared that Frozen 2 is coming in November 27, 2019. That will be a challenge.

        Loading editor
    • TsWade2 wrote:
      And ever since I heard Disney gutted hand drawn animation with lay offs three years ago, I was very upset. I want to see Disney do another hand drawn animated feature, but sadly, they can't! They already killed it for financial reasons. I know they've been using a meander for shorts like Paperman, but I doubt they'll use it for future animated features. DVDizzy.com officially declared that hand drawn animation is dead at disney. They said that Disney studios only have four hand drawn animators, and that's not enough to do future animated feature with meander. With that being said, I feel like giving up hope for hand drawn animation and decided to get with the time and accept reality that hand drawn animation is dead. And I think Klaus, Hullabaloo, and Dragin's Lair will fail. And all of you need to wake up before you guys get hurt or worse. I'm sorry, but I can't take this long obsession any more.

      Why? Did it do to something wrong?

        Loading editor
    • TsWade2 wrote: Man, I haven't been in this thread for a long time. I see there's an arguement there between Oliver and Trimc. Let's not argue in this thread, please. This is a sympathy discussion, not Jerry Springer. Because that will make my debbie downer behavior even worse. Anyway, I agree that Walt Disney will love 3d animation, but I don't think he wants 2d animation to be dead.As much as I hope Klaus will be successful in 2019, but there's one problem. Disney officially, i repeat, officially declared that Frozen 2 is coming in November 27, 2019. That will be a challenge.

      There WAS an argument at first but that was a long time ago. Plus, I didnt want to fight. Trimc started it for no reason due to MY opinion.

        Loading editor
    • Olivier Baghdadi wrote:

      TsWade2 wrote: Man, I haven't been in this thread for a long time. I see there's an arguement there between Oliver and Trimc. Let's not argue in this thread, please. This is a sympathy discussion, not Jerry Springer. Because that will make my debbie downer behavior even worse. Anyway, I agree that Walt Disney will love 3d animation, but I don't think he wants 2d animation to be dead.As much as I hope Klaus will be successful in 2019, but there's one problem. Disney officially, i repeat, officially declared that Frozen 2 is coming in November 27, 2019. That will be a challenge.

      There WAS an argument at first but that was a long time ago. Plus, I didnt want to fight. Trimc started it for no reason due to MY opinion.


      Agreed.

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    • TsWade2 wrote:
      And ever since I heard Disney gutted hand drawn animation with lay offs three years ago, I was very upset. I want to see Disney do another hand drawn animated feature, but sadly, they can't! They already killed it for financial reasons. I know they've been using a meander for shorts like Paperman, but I doubt they'll use it for future animated features. DVDizzy.com officially declared that hand drawn animation is dead at disney. They said that Disney studios only have four hand drawn animators, and that's not enough to do future animated feature with meander. With that being said, I feel like giving up hope for hand drawn animation and decided to get with the time and accept reality that hand drawn animation is dead. And I think Klaus, Hullabaloo, and Dragin's Lair will fail. And all of you need to wake up before you guys get hurt or worse. I'm sorry, but I can't take this long obsession any more.

      Guys 2D is alive maybe not so much for the movies but the Tangled series and Big hero 6 are 2D so that's proof it's alive

        Loading editor
    • TsWade2 wrote:
      Man, I haven't been in this thread for a long time. I see there's an arguement there between Oliver and Trimc. Let's not argue in this thread, please. This is a sympathy discussion, not Jerry Springer. Because that will make my debbie downer behavior even worse. Anyway, I agree that Walt Disney will love 3d animation, but I don't think he wants 2d animation to be dead.As much as I hope Klaus will be successful in 2019, but there's one problem. Disney officially, i repeat, officially declared that Frozen 2 is coming in November 27, 2019. That will be a challenge.

      I agreed. It's just only could to do this. But, I don't know.

        Loading editor
    • Gracekim12 wrote:
      TsWade2 wrote:
      And ever since I heard Disney gutted hand drawn animation with lay offs three years ago, I was very upset. I want to see Disney do another hand drawn animated feature, but sadly, they can't! They already killed it for financial reasons. I know they've been using a meander for shorts like Paperman, but I doubt they'll use it for future animated features. DVDizzy.com officially declared that hand drawn animation is dead at disney. They said that Disney studios only have four hand drawn animators, and that's not enough to do future animated feature with meander. With that being said, I feel like giving up hope for hand drawn animation and decided to get with the time and accept reality that hand drawn animation is dead. And I think Klaus, Hullabaloo, and Dragin's Lair will fail. And all of you need to wake up before you guys get hurt or worse. I'm sorry, but I can't take this long obsession any more.
      Guys 2D is alive maybe not so much for the movies but the Tangled series and Big hero 6 are 2D so that's proof it's alive

      Only for TV series, not theatrical films.

        Loading editor
    • Bob Jindra wrote:
      Gracekim12 wrote:
      TsWade2 wrote:
      And ever since I heard Disney gutted hand drawn animation with lay offs three years ago, I was very upset. I want to see Disney do another hand drawn animated feature, but sadly, they can't! They already killed it for financial reasons. I know they've been using a meander for shorts like Paperman, but I doubt they'll use it for future animated features. DVDizzy.com officially declared that hand drawn animation is dead at disney. They said that Disney studios only have four hand drawn animators, and that's not enough to do future animated feature with meander. With that being said, I feel like giving up hope for hand drawn animation and decided to get with the time and accept reality that hand drawn animation is dead. And I think Klaus, Hullabaloo, and Dragin's Lair will fail. And all of you need to wake up before you guys get hurt or worse. I'm sorry, but I can't take this long obsession any more.
      Guys 2D is alive maybe not so much for the movies but the Tangled series and Big hero 6 are 2D so that's proof it's alive
      Only for TV series, not theatrical films.

      How unfortunate.

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    • Draw Ancient Folk Tales Of Africa and mix them into one video (a few at a time)

      Draw Hawii's Old Beliefs like Moana's cute movie

      Favorite Creatures from outer space or Earth mix your imaginations together


      Those like Atlantis aren't simple for everyone to understand accurately but there's loyalty in it.

      Let your day dreams of Disney characters support you in what you continue to draw

      In future spiritual movies you could let Zentangle arts support you with attractive designs that stand out. whether church item in the video, or a Heavenly character of the movie.

      Draw what you loved from heroic books you wish to spread the story of


      WORK TOGETHER ON HAND DRAWING WITH ADVICE AND EXPLANATIONS SHARED, BELIEVE IN YOURSELF, IF IT'S THE EASIEST WAY TO SPEED UP A PLAN MIX WHAT'S SIMILAR TOGETHER TO FORM A BRAND NEW FAVORITE!!

      DON'T GIVE UP SUCH ENJOYABLE STUFF!

        Loading editor
    • LionGuardEscort198 wrote:
      Draw Ancient Folk Tales Of Africa and mix them into one video (a few at a time)

      Draw Hawii's Old Beliefs like Moana's cute movie

      Favorite Creatures from outer space or Earth mix your imaginations together


      Those like Atlantis aren't simple for everyone to understand accurately but there's loyalty in it.

      Let your day dreams of Disney characters support you in what you continue to draw

      In future spiritual movies you could let Zentangle arts support you with attractive designs that stand out. whether church item in the video, or a Heavenly character of the movie.

      Draw what you loved from heroic books you wish to spread the story of


      WORK TOGETHER ON HAND DRAWING WITH ADVICE AND EXPLANATIONS SHARED, BELIEVE IN YOURSELF, IF IT'S THE EASIEST WAY TO SPEED UP A PLAN MIX WHAT'S SIMILAR TOGETHER TO FORM A BRAND NEW FAVORITE!!

      DON'T GIVE UP SUCH ENJOYABLE STUFF!

      Whoa, how thoughtful.

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
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